# Will you give Donald Trump a chance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2017, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529 "2017-01-19T06:24:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/101 "2017-01-19T21:15:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Also, just to be clear, do you think the Birthers “didn’t really mean it” when they said Obama was not the president because he wasn’t a citizen? I certainly don’t think so. Wanna know why? Because I can tell when folks are speaking figuratively or literally. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/102 "2017-01-19T21:17:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I certainly don’t think so. Wanna know why? Because I can tell when folks are speaking figuratively or literally. Can you? Yes, I can. So where does that leave us? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/103 "2017-01-19T21:18:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, are you saying that you would consider protesters with the same signs and slogans differently if they were doing so today? > > Also, just to be clear, do you think the Birthers “didn’t really mean it” when they said Obama was not the president because he wasn’t a citizen? Having gone past the headlines and shouting, and by bothering to actually listen to what message they were trying to put forth, I think that a lot of them thought that he wasn’t legally the President for precisely the reason(s) they put forth. You can find out a lot of things if you make an effort to listen to people, instead of looking for out-of-context phrases to nail them with. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/104 "2017-01-19T21:19:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, I can. > > So where does that leave us? If you can tell, then you can tell that people are speaking figuratively when they say, “Not my president” based on a belief that he’s an appalling person, and speaking literally when they say, “Not eligible to be president” based on a belief that he violates a specific clause in the Constitution. Which means this whole stupid hijack is pointless, and we await your apology for instigating it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/105 "2017-01-19T21:19:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I didn’t _say_ anything-I asked you a question. OK, then I don’t understand your question. What difference does it make whether the protest was before or after the Electoral College met? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/106 "2017-01-19T21:19:35Z")
The orderly transfer of power is not a suicide pact. He will get only those chances that he earns by demonstrating policies that will promote prosperity and security for the greatest number of people at home and abroad. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/107 "2017-01-19T21:22:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you can tell, then you can tell that people are speaking figuratively when they say, “Not my president” based on a belief that he’s an appalling person, and speaking literally when they say, “Not eligible to be president” based on a belief that he violates a specific clause in the Constitution. Which means this whole stupid hijack is pointless, and we await your apology for instigating it. I didn’t instigate this discussion. **Snoe** did. Point being, though, is that you expect me to accept your claim instead of my own. Your claim involves mind reading. Mine involves reading. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/108 "2017-01-19T21:24:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t instigate this discussion. **Snoe** did. > > Point being, though, is that you expect me to accept your claim instead of my own. Your claim involves mind reading. Yes, I’ve got this amazing spell that allows mindreading. People move their fingers in specific ways while touching the magical device, and their thoughts convert into various forms of energy until manifesting in my head. You can do it too, just by reading the words that others type. > [@](#): > > Mine involves reading. Yours involves reading things perfectly literally. That’s a pretty lousy way to read. If you’re unable to tell when people are communicating figuratively, it’s really going to make communication with you hard. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/109 "2017-01-19T21:25:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t instigate this discussion. **Snoe** did. > > Point being, though, is that you expect me to accept your claim instead of my own. Your claim involves mind reading. Mine involves reading. So, you really have no way of telling if someone is being literal or figurative from context? That’s literally insane! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/110 "2017-01-19T21:27:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, then I don’t understand your question. What difference does it make whether the protest was before or after the Electoral College met? My last post in this little hijack: He didn’t have a lock on the job until the EC voted his way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/111 "2017-01-19T21:31:46Z")
I wish the OP would explain how much of a chance he wanted us to give Trump, and why nothing he has said and/or done so far should be considered. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/112 "2017-01-19T22:08:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you really have no way of telling if someone is being literal or figurative from context? > > That’s literally insane! No, that’s not it. There are two claims being made. No evidence is offered, other than the claims. Occam’s razor says the simpler explanation is probably correct. Now, if you were able to introduce some additional evidence (for example, people snickering as they said it, or personal testimony that “we’re not being literal”, or even if there was evidence that more often than not, protesters don’t mean what they say to be taken literally), then that would be different. But as it is, we have two claims and nothing else, and need to decide which one is more likely to be correct. Remember, we are talking about people we don’t know, can’t interact with, and have no information about their history. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/113 "2017-01-19T22:12:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, that’s not it. There are two claims being made. No evidence is offered, other than the claims. Occam’s razor says the simpler explanation is probably correct. > > Now, if you were able to introduce some additional evidence (for example, people snickering as they said it, or personal testimony that “we’re not being literal”, or even if there was evidence that more often than not, protesters don’t mean what they say to be taken literally), then that would be different. But as it is, we have two claims and nothing else, and need to decide which one is more likely to be correct. > > Remember, we are talking about people we don’t know, can’t interact with, and have no information about their history. Well, I would agree with the simplest explanation is the most likely, I think we just disagree which is simpler. I claim that a phrase that was previously used to mock an actor for a popular movie is reused to mock a president elect in the same way. You claim that all of these people do not understand how the US govt works in the slightest, and that they think they can pick their own president. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/114 "2017-01-19T22:52:20Z")
**John Mace** - if all those tens of thousands of protesters literally thought that Trump was not going to be the President, why were they protesting? If they actually believed that Trump wasn’t going to be POTUS, they would have stayed at home. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/115 "2017-01-19T22:55:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, I would agree with the simplest explanation is the most likely, I think we just disagree which is simpler. > > I claim that a phrase that was previously used to mock an actor for a popular movie is reused to mock a president elect in the same way. > > You claim that all of these people do not understand how the US govt works in the slightest, and that they think they can pick their own president. I think someone is using Occam’s Chainsaw. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/116 "2017-01-19T23:00:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, that’s not it. There are two claims being made. No evidence is offered, other than the claims. Occam’s razor says the simpler explanation is probably correct. One explanation requires me to believe that tens of thousands of people are smart enough to understand the election outcome but too stupid to understand that they can’t reverse it by fiat. The other explanation requires me to believe that you’re having trouble distinguishing between literal and figurative speech. The simpler explanation is clear. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/117 "2017-01-19T23:33:27Z")
I think we can defuse this hijack by observing that it doesn’t matter if “not my president” is meant literally or figuratively, because in either case: yes, he is your president. Accept that fact and deal with it accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/118 "2017-01-19T23:40:09Z")
I mean, what choice do I have? Yes, I’ll give him a chance. I don’t really expect any good to come of it, but I believe he may surprise me and enact one or two things that I like. Who the fuck knows. Then again, I’m an eternal optimist. I really haven’t seen much of anything to encourage me, but I still think he’s better than some of the people on that side I was truly afraid of, like Ted Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/119 "2017-01-19T23:44:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Not My President” is a childish response that refuses to accept reality. If you’re not at the point where you think we should take up arms and overthrow the government, then you’re just taking your marbles and going home. No one is going to care. What makes you think this isn’t the point of overthrowing a government? It doesn’t have to be a civil war, with parties reorganizing into armies with fire teams and submarines. It could be an impeachment push, an assassination plot, a media barrage of rumors about his long ties to the KGB, a series of lawsuits, or even just the level of disrespect and implied insurrection the state legislature of Wyoming showed to Obama. Let’s see. I can respect the rule of law & the orderly transfer of power even as the head of the EPA tries to destroy the EPA, and the head of the FDA tries to destroy the FDA. Or I can rebel, break the law, even lie, cheat, steal, and kill to stop them. Well, I’m a situationist and a consequentialist, so the latter option\* is an option.\* ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529/120 "2017-01-19T23:51:53Z")
More law-abidingly, and abandoning the forced dichotomy between _coup d’etat_ and _nothing;_ I’m probably going to be calling up my Congresscritters and yelling at them to block his more nonsensical appointments, and to impeach him over his conflicts of interest–and as those are problems that are problems right now, I am not waiting until summer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-give-donald-trump-a-chance/777529.md?page=7)