# Will you still be pro-abortion or pro-choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704 "2000-05-05T20:36:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/41 "2000-05-07T05:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > As for a “perfect scenario” where abortion might have been mandated, I lived it. > > Bullshit. Your story is unfortunate, but wholly pedestrian. > > And had the Anti-Choice Nazis like you had their way, we would have been forced to deal with the consequences. We weren’t stupid “welfare mothers” or “irresponsible teens” – we’re intelligent adults who got caught in a horrible situation. > \*\* Isn’t it interesting that if someone is against whatever YOU are for, name calling is almost the first offensive tool brought to the fore?? Tassey isn’t ‘ANTI’ choice. She probably makes hundreds of them every day. The term would be ‘anti abortion’ because THAT is the topic. NOT choices. Since I have only \* your word \* as to your purported ‘intelligence’. I’ll leave that remark alone. I’m against abortion, not because of the vile pictures, and I’ve already stated that I don’t think they will change anyone’s mind. As Cristi mentioned, I saw films of women giving birth at my Lamaze classes, and if I hadn’t already been pregnant, it might have given \*\* me \*\* some serious doubts as to how much I wanted to go through all of that. So, how ever grisly the photos are, and whether they are real becomes moot, because no one knows for certain. However, Tassey has the right to bring up the subject, whether the photos are real or not, abortions happen, and they happen late in pregnancies. Probably looking quite horrific. She didn’t curse you, or anyone else that stated their opinions and ‘choices’. You could at the very least, show \* her \* the same kind of civility. \*\* Tassey \*\* I didn’t want to get into this again, because it’s a hot button issue with most people, that a level-headed debate becomes impossible, so what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/42 "2000-05-07T05:22:59Z")
However, by calling her stance “pro-life”, she and others of her ilk are implying that pro-choicers are “anti-life”. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/43 "2000-05-07T05:25:15Z")
(“She” in my above post refers to Tassey, not Anti Pro. Anti Pro has not used the term “pro-life” anywhere in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/44 "2000-05-07T07:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > However, by calling her stance “pro-life”, she and others of her ilk are implying that pro-choicers are “anti-life”. > \*\* Actually, tracer, THAT is one of the issues that bother me. Words have a great deal of power, they ought to be used as specific as one can. Being ‘pro-life’ would make the opposite ‘anti-life’, and I’m sure anyone who either supports abortion or is against the cessation it being available are most likely glad to be alive. I don’t believe there will be meaningful dialogue on this subject, because most can’t agree on the premise of 'life’and when it begins. I believe that life starts at the moment of conception. Those favoring/acceptance of abortion believe otherwise. If people who support the right to an abortion ever simply said, ‘yes, we believe life starts at the moment of conception, however we still want the right to end it, when and how we choose and it’s none of anyone’s business.’ There might be some headway in the debate. If people against abortion would cease and desist with the ‘scare and intimidate’ tactics seen at some clinics, there might actually be a chance for both sides to listen to the other. Instead it ends up in screaming fights and fits about ‘fetus’ versus ‘baby’. ‘With no one goin’ no place, fast’.\* ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/45 "2000-05-07T07:28:20Z")
Cervaise said: > [@](#): > > So fuck you […] no wonder you’re such a fucking asswipe. Grow up and get a goddamn clue – and keep your tiny brain out of my life. [Moderator Hat ON] This is not The Pit, so cool it. Please refrain from personal attacks in GD. Thanks. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/46 "2000-05-07T07:43:07Z")
> [@](#): > > If people who support the right to an abortion ever simply said, ‘yes, we believe life starts at the moment of conception, however we still want the right to end it, when and how we choose and it’s none of anyone’s business.’ No one would say that because the argument is not about when _life_ begins–it’s about when personhood begins. A sperm is alive, but nobody complains about the death of millions when guys jack off because a sperm is not a human. The question is: when does a potential human cross over into “human”? An egg is a potential human, so should we try for murder women who don’t get pregnant every period? A fertilized egg is a potential human, so should we outlaw birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg? A fetus is a potential human, so is a miscarriage accidental manslaughter and should be tried in a court of law? No pro-lifer would agree that a _human_ life can be ended whenever they choose; that would allow murder of any child to be acceptable. The question everyone argues is not over the right to end life (we casually end the life of bacteria, insects and animals–our true concern is for _human_ life) , but over when a egg/sperm/zygote/fetus goes from being not-human-but-could-be-later to human. ---
**Author:** ![Falcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Falcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falcon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/47 "2000-05-07T07:43:21Z")
Pro choice. Always have been, always will be. And proud to be helping groups in the fight to KEEP it legal. I will agree with Anti Pro on one thing. This debate will never be settled. I think, and hope, and pray for the day where the debate over whether it should be legal has ended, and the pro-life groups work on influencing mothers peacefully. (By that, I mean without scare tactics.) But sadly, I don’t see that day coming for a LONG time. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/48 "2000-05-07T07:58:25Z")
Tassey: > [@](#): > > As for 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, they happen all the time and they are perfectly legal. A good friend of mine succumbed to pressure and had an abortion when she was 5 1/2 months along… She succumbed to what pressure? Why would anyone “pressure” a woman to have a second-trimester abortion unless her life was at stake? Also, if she really didn’t wish to have an abortion, _she shouldn’t have_- no matter who was pressuring her, and no matter if carrying the fetus to term and giving birth would surely kill her. The concept of being pro-choice is not to encourage women to have abortions. It’s to preserve a woman’s right to do what she wishes with her own body. Until it is born, the fetus does not have a separate body; that is why it is correct to call it a “fetus”, not a “baby”. A pro-choice person should not “pressure” a woman to have an abortion; forcing a woman to have an abortion is just as anti-choice as forcing her to carry the fetus to term. tracer: > [@](#): > > We’ll never know, though, because those pictures had no captions. If “the truth is in the pictures”, as you say, I have to ask what truth is in those pictures? That aborted fetuses (if that is indeed what those are pictures of) look like cute little babies that have been horrifically mangled? So do life-like baby dolls that have been run over by a truck. Should we outlaw the destruction of dolls because they look cute? This reminds me of an incident that happened here in Amarillo a year or so ago. A dead newborn baby, umbilical cord still attached, was found in a trash bag in a dumpster. Police sealed off the scene, took their crime scene photos, and rushed the baby to Lubbock for an autopsy. The entire city was on the lookout for a suspected baby-killer. Pretty soon, Lubbock called to inform the police that the baby was actually a lifelike doll, the sort used as a visual aid in prenatal classes. I’m sure those crime-scene photos were pretty horrifying. I wonder if the police should have gone ahead and prosecuted the person who discarded the doll. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/49 "2000-05-07T13:20:32Z")
…after you go to these sites? [Click here](http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/GerriSantoro.jpg) for a neat picture of Gerri Santoro. Taken from a [website](http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/) which has many helpful links, she is seen laying on a Connecticut hotel room, her own blood splattered all over a towel, the victim of an illegal abortion before Roe v. Wade. From the website: > [@](#): > > The above picture is a police photo of Gerri Santoro, who died in 1964 at age 27 in a Connecticut motel room after a botched illegal abortion. To anyone with their priorities straight, this photo should be far more disturbing than any photo of scraps of post-abortion fetal tissue, of the type waved by anti-abortion protestors outside clinics. No fetus was ever the beloved sibling of fourteen brothers and sisters, as was Gerri Santoro. No fetus was ever the loving mother of two daughters, as was Gerri Santoro. No fetus ever endured the verbal and physical abuse of a spouse for the sake of the marriage, as did Gerri Santoro–and then left the marriage for the sake of the children, as did Gerri Santoro. No fetus ever put her life into grave peril to try to keep her husband from taking her children, as did Gerri Santoro, when she heard her estranged husband was coming to visit the girls-- when she panicked at what he might do when he found she was pregnant by another man. And no fetus was ever left to die alone in a motel room by the man that operated on her using borrowed medical implements and a textbook. > > No fetus ever sacrificed its life in a painful suicide because the U.S. law, with its self-righteous pre-Roe surety that stripping women of their rights and even their lives was best for the nation, provided it no choice. Gerri Santoro made this sacrifice. And she has not been the only one. A few nice stories from [another wensite](http://www.wcla.org/articles/lest.html) tells us these stories: > [@](#): > > I do recall two women who died from the complications of illegal abortions. One happened in 1 9S5. A young woman-she was only seventeen or eighteen-died of a ruptured uterus and an absolutely overwhelming infection… She died of septic shock. Afterward there were spirited discussions among the doctors about whether we might have been able to save her if we had done some-thing differently-maybe different antibiotics, things like that. But no one talked about or even seemed to notice the really obvious solution: making legal abortions available. > [@](#): > > The patient was in a private room. I even remember the room number, 724. That was one of the gold coast rooms. The woman, in her early or mid-thirties, was married to someone really important, with a lot of connections. She came in with severe pelvic sepsis and she died. I remember her so vividly because she was one of the most beautiful women I had ever seen. She was also one of the sickest. She was ashen. When I first saw her, she was still conscious and lucid. I think she suspected she might die. She had kidney failure. Then all her other systems failed as well. She got ecchymosis-red blotches all over her skin. Her blood vessels were just breaking underneath her skin, sort of like what happens when you bruise yourself, but this was happening all over her body without anyone even touching her. It was due to a disturbance of her coagulating mechanism as a result of the overwhelming sepsis. She died two or three days after she was admitted. > > By the time she got to a doctor, it was too late. The system, and especially the lawmakers who left her with no choice, killed her just as surely as if they had held the catheter or coat hanger or whatever. I’m still angry. It was all so unnecessary. > [@](#): > > I have no idea how many years it covered, but the pathology department at that municipal hospital had a rather large collection of jars of preserved organs that had been removed for one reason or another. Many of the Organs were uteruses with the abortion instrument still in place. Some of the instruments were knitting needles, and some were coat hangers, and there they were, neatly labeled and lined up, each floating in its jar of formaldehyde. > > …I wonder if those bottles are still there. If they are, I wonder if today’s medical students understand what they mean. Coat hangers and knitting needles probably seem very strange to them. They must wonder even more tan we did twenty five years ago, “why would any women take such a chance?” I don’t know why, but I know a lot of them did. You also might want to check out [this comprehensive review](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97may/abortion.htm) of _When Abortion Was a Crime_, which tells of how “In the late 1920s some 15,000 women a year died from abortions,” and how "The year after abortion was legalized in New York State, the maternal-mortality rate there dropped by 45 percent – one reason why legalization can be seen as “a public-health triumph.” Also, feel free to order the video [_When Abortion Was Illegal - Untold Stories_](http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/waw.html), which, according to one reviewer, is “Affectingly related stories…etch the climate of fear, pain, reprisal, and sometimes death.” There is only one graphic picture above, but please take the time to read ALL of the articles, before responding. It’s very well documented and investigated. ============================================================================ Some people like to think the value of some congealing cells and blood is more than that of a breathing, thinking and living human being. I do not happen to agree. And if the best you can do is post some yucky pictures, guess what? There are a ton of yucky pictures of women who died from back-alley abortions, just like Gerri Santoro. It’s just that the pro-choice position is not so in the minority (look at any polls for verification of this) that all they have to go on is yucky pictures and ancient words in an unverifiable book to try and get people on their side. Also, Tassey, what exactly have you done about the abortion problem? Have you adopted a young black child who is floundering in day care? Have you learned about contraceptions and volunteered to teach them to youth in your area? Have you volunteered for Planned Parenthood, who offer pregnant woman meny options to help them make a choice that is right for them? Have you taken in a poor young pregnant woman and helped her eat and raise her child? Or have you just posted some links to some ugly pictures on a message board? My very pro-choice fiancee is going to go to law school and become a child advocacy attourney so she can help facilitate adoptions and generally help this sitation by giving wome options. Seems to me that my pro-choice fiancee is doing a lot more to prevent abortion than most pro-life people. Including yourself too, right? * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four weeks, 11 hours, 6 minutes and 6 seconds. 1138 cigarettes not smoked, saving $142.31. Life saved: 3 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/50 "2000-05-07T13:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Tassey isn’t ‘ANTI’ choice. She probably makes hundreds of them every day. \*\* Yes. And wouldn’t it be great to just take a bunch of them away from her? You know, make choices for her? I’ll bet she would love it if she was forced to do things that she would not otherwise choose. And you would too, I suppose… > [@](#): > > \*\*However, Tassey has the right to bring up the subject, whether the photos are real or not, abortions happen, and they happen late in pregnancies. Probably looking quite horrific. \*\* Compare the number of late-term abortions with the number of ACTUAL HUMANS who have died from complications brought on by illegal abortions. Then, take out the number of late-term abortions which are done because the woman’s life, her future ability to reproduce, the fetus, or any combination of the three is in serious jeopardy. Well, actually, you shouldn’t do this, because then you’re stuck with the number ZERO, and that doesn’t help your case much, now does it? * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four weeks, 11 hours, 18 minutes and 31 seconds. 1138 cigarettes not smoked, saving $142.35. Life saved: 3 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/51 "2000-05-07T13:53:56Z")
Satan, while I agree with your first post for the most part, I’ll take exception to this: > [@](#): > > Yes. And wouldn’t it be great to just take a bunch of them away from her? You know, make choices for her? I’ll bet she would love it if she was forced to do things that she would not otherwise choose. And you would too, I suppose… There is a point where it is right for the law to prevent us from making certain choices. Generally this is when those choices infringe on the rights of others. If you believe that life (or “personhood” if you prefer) begins at conception, taking away the option of having an abortion is as logical as taking away the option of simply killin people you don’t like (not to imply that Anti Pro holds the two to be equivalent in any way). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/52 "2000-05-07T16:58:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Every woman that I know that has had an abortion has gone through post-abortion trauma (including the friend I mentioned). I realize that not all women have endured that trauma… YET, but it always comes back around. How very convenient. “Every woman experiences ‘post-abortion trauma’.” “Here’s a woman who did not experience it.” Oh, she will." Oh, by the way, where in the medical literature does the term “post-abortion trauma” appear? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/53 "2000-05-07T17:15:52Z")
Otto wrote: > [@](#): > > Oh, by the way, where in the medical literature does the term “post-abortion trauma” appear? Well, **obviously** , it doesn’t appear anywhere in the medical literature because the evil pro-abortion Klinton administration is suppressing THE TRUTH! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/54 "2000-05-07T17:29:37Z")
And every woman _I’ve_ known who had an abortion experienced only immense relief. This includes me; my abortion was the result of a rape when I was barely 16. I had some posttraumatic stress from the rape itself and the other circumstances surrounding that unfortunate pregnancy, but no regret or guilt about the abortion itself. That was 13 years ago; maybe I’ll suddenly get stressed out about it “someday”. IIRC, wasn’t there a major study done by the Bush or Reagan administration that intended to prove that women who have abortions suffer severe emotional problems afterwards? The results of the study were an embarrassment, because it was found that the only women who are likely to feel posttraumatic stress after an abortion were those who believed abortion to be morally wrong. (Helpful hint: if you believe abortion is wrong, _don’t have one_.) I can find a cite if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/55 "2000-05-07T17:54:09Z")
Kinda like that study that went out to prove Marijuana was really bad for you/really addictive, and showed just the opposite, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/56 "2000-05-07T19:42:25Z")
Ok, I think that everyone can agree that back-alley abortions are bad. How does this imply that clinical ones are good? And as Gaudere points out, the issue is, when does a potential person become a person? At conception? When cell differentiation begins? When the heart starts beating? When neural activity starts? When they get their driver’s license? Suppose that a mother decides to kill her ten-year old son, and justifies it on the basis that he’s still wholly dependent on her, and hence not a person? Obviously, we don’t allow mothers to make this choice. At what point ought we to draw the line? It seems to me that drawing it when the fetus/baby happens to leave the womb is awfully arbitrary… How much real difference is there between an 9-month fetus and a newborn baby? I think that the logical dividing line is that a collection of human cells becomes a person when that collection of cells is capable of independent neural activity. If that collection of cells is, in fact, a person, then a woman no more has the right to choose to kill it than she has the right to kill her mother. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/57 "2000-05-07T19:44:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*There is a point where it is right for the law to prevent us from making certain choices. Generally this is when those choices infringe on the rights of others. If you believe… \*\* I’ll cut you off right there. You prove my point when you say “if you believe.” Obviously laws take ethics and morality into consideration. But this is PERSONAL morality here, and if you DON’T believe “that life (or ‘personhood’ if you prefer) begins at conception,” then your right to do with your own body is being taken away. Turn it around. Let’s say that someone tells you that you HAVE to get an abortion. You like that? I’ll bet they’d change their tune to become pro-choice if something like that were to happen, say as a draconian population control attept. * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four weeks, 17 hours, 44 minutes and 43 seconds. 1149 cigarettes not smoked, saving $143.69. Life saved: 3 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/58 "2000-05-07T20:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Ok, I think that everyone can agree that back-alley abortions are bad. \*\* I guess not the folks who want to outlaw all abortion, even in cases where health of the prospective mother is a major issue. > [@](#): > > \*\*How does this imply that clinical ones are good? \*\* Well… Gee… How about people aren’t dying, except very, very rarely, as opposed to the mass slaughter when it was illegal? > [@](#): > > \*\*And as Gaudere points out, the issue is, when does a potential person become a person? \*\* At birth. > [@](#): > > \*\*Suppose that a mother decides to kill her ten-year old son, and justifies it on the basis that he’s still wholly dependent on her, and hence not a person? \*\* I really love that silly stawman argument. [ul] [li]A 10 year old is breathing on its own. A fetus never does.[/li][li]A 10 year old has a fully functioning brain. A fetus during the first trimester does not.[/li][li]A 10 year old has a fully functional nervous system. A etus during the first trimester, does not.[/li][li]A 10 year old is not physically attatched and owing it’s existance to its mother. A fetus - until well into the second trimester, is.[/li][/ul] You want I should bring up any more obvious differences here? > [@](#): > > \*\*How much real difference is there between an 9-month fetus and a newborn baby? \*\* First of all, there ain’t many abortions of nine-minth frtuses, and unless a major complication is found at that point, here are none. Second of all, how much real difference is there between a live person and a newly deceased corpse? Why doesn’t the corpse have the same rights? > [@](#): > > \*\*I think that the logical dividing line is that a collection of human cells becomes a person when that collection of cells is capable of independent neural activity. \*\* Are you aware of when that is, exactly? And are you aware of how many abortions not done because of complications and threats to the woman’s health take place after this moment? > [@](#): > > **If that collection of cells is, in fact, a person, then a woman no more has the right to choose to kill it than she has the right to kill her mother.** I believe we took that particular strawman on elsewhere in his post. * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four weeks, 18 hours, 1 minute and 14 seconds. 1150 cigarettes not smoked, saving $143.75. Life saved: 3 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/59 "2000-05-07T20:51:35Z")
Chronos wrote: > [@](#): > > Suppose that a mother decides to kill her ten-year old son, and justifies it on the basis that he’s still wholly dependent on her, and hence not a person? Obviously, we don’t allow mothers to make this choice. No, but in ancient Rome, they **did** allow fathers to make that choice. Under ancient Roman law, a man’s child was considered his property until he reached the age of majority, and he could do anything he liked with his property, up to and including “disposing” of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2000, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704/60 "2000-05-08T01:40:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Ok, I think that everyone can agree that back-alley abortions are bad. How does this imply that clinical ones are good? \*\* **Because women are going to have abortions whether they are legal or not** , whether their husbands and clergy tell them to or not, whether they are administered by a well-scrubbed and doctor with the appropriate instruments, or by a money-grubbing butcher with a coat hanger. Women have been aborting unwanted pregnancies for centuries using instruments of various types and herbs. Many have died (See Satan’s post re: stats on maternal mortality rates). Unless the anti-abortionists convert everyone to their way of thinking, abortions will still take place. No matter what I think about when a fetus becomes a person or whether I would make the choice to abort, I would rather see my best friend/sister/mother live past reproductive age, than haemorrage to death in a hotel room. So-called “pro-lifers” need to realize that when they try to make abortion illegal, their fight to “save babies” would result in a death sentence for the most desperate women. So whose life do they value - that of a ghost of a being whom nobody loves, wants or has the ability to nurture; or that of a person who has had years to forge bonds with others, love and be loved and contribute to her community? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-you-still-be-pro-abortion-or-pro-choice/18704.md?page=4)