# Will your children be gay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347 "2003-10-24T16:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/222 "2003-10-30T05:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***pervert** , I never said what you’re potentially attributing to me. \*\* Sorry. My bad. These threads are getting very difficult to follow. I appologize. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’d still be a lesbian even if I had never had sex with another woman. The attraction would still be there, and the lack of attraction for men. You don’t have to have sex with someone to know you’re attracted to them. I would think that this would be bloody obvious, but apparently it is not. > \*\* No, I understand that you can be homosexual even if you never have sex again. My question had more to do with **lissener** ’s coming out at 11. My question has to do with how you come to understand such a thing at such a young age. Perhaps this is a subject for another thread, but I am having trouble getting my head wrapped around the notion that an 11 yr old can KNOW he is gay. I understand how a youth could have urges, or feelings that lean either way. But how do you decide short of experimenting? > [@](#): > > \*\* > But disappointed? Being disappointed suggests that your child has failed to live up to your expectations, rather than met them in a different way than you expected. If this is because being gay is less favored in your eyes than being straight, then you’re homophobic. \*\* I was going to try to defend my position, but after re reading my earlier post, I realized that “disapointed” is perhaps the wrong word. I only meant it in the sense that I expect him to be straight. And if he is not, then that expectation will have been shattered. I did not mean to pass a value judgement. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/223 "2003-10-30T06:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilairen \* > \*\ ***pervert** , I had my first crush when I was seven. My awareness of my own heterosexuality was pretty good at that age; I don’t think that an awareness of homosexuality would be any more complicated to manage. \*\* OK, but how “sexual” was this crush? I had a few very close relationships with male teachers while young. Does this mean I might be gay? I would suggest that it does not. > [@](#): > > ]_Originally posted by Joe Random_ > **Well, when I was under 16 I knew that I was straight. It’s not that difficult, really. The fact that I consistantly had crushes on girls and not boys kind of gave it away. That, and the fact that I enjoyed sneaking a peek at Playboy with my friends, yet never once considered looking at any magazine with naked men.** Once again, isn’t sexual exploration a little more complicated than this? I’ve spent years discovering what “works” (and I’m pretty sure I’m not done looking :D). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Joe Random_ > It’s not like everyone starts out straight, and then some people have intercourse with someone of the same sex and, _poof_, they’re suddenly gay. People aren’t gay because they have homosexual sex; They have homosexual sex because they’re gay. Right. I understand the homosexuality is not caused by homosexual sex. But does everyone KNOW from birth that they are gay or straight? If not, when do they decide? If everyone (or even most people) are SURE before they have had sex, then what is the criterion used to decide? Please understand I am not pontificating or preaching. I truly don’t understand. My experience has been that teenagers are not sure about most things (even when they are sure;)). I’m just not sure how you can all be so certain that they can make this life choice with such conviction. Also, I’m not trying to argue that homosexuality is really a choice or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/224 "2003-10-30T06:23:15Z")
**pervert** , I’d be a lesbian even if I had **never** had sex. It’s who you are, not what you do. While I personally didn’t figure out that I was a lesbian until I was considerably older (in part because I also have gender dysphoria), I know a lot of gay men and women who claim to have been aware that “they were different” as early as age six. Absent a repressive home environment, it seems to be the case that most gay youths figure out they are gay by their early teenage years. I did know that I was a lesbian long before I ever had a lesbian relationship. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/225 "2003-10-30T06:49:14Z")
OK, I understand that homosexuality can be considred seperately from gay sex. > [@](#): > > I know a lot of gay men and women who claim to have been aware that “they were different” as early as age six But you see, I’ve always considered myself “different” as well. Never been attracted to men (not really anyway). But I have always considered myself different. The difference has changed over time. I guess I would question the accuracy of any youth’s proclamation about his sexual proclivities. It simply does not seem to be something simple enough to decide at that age. > [@](#): > > It’s who you are, not what you do. OK, but if it is not what you do, and there are no outwardly visible signs (or are there?), then how do you know? If I assume a child of mine declares homosexuality at such an early age, how can I help them be sure? I would not trust that any decision, taken at such an early age, as absolute simply on their say so. Unless you can propose some test which would remove the doubt? ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/226 "2003-10-30T07:11:42Z")
The emotional content of the crush was pretty much the same as the emotional content of my post-pubescent crushes and even relationships: I wanted to spend time with the objet d’crush, be near him, and so on. I took especial joy in his accomplishments simply because he had them. When I moved away I tried to keep in touch with him, though it didn’t work out that way. In my very puerile fashion, I could easily imagine a world where he and I wound up “seeing each other” within a few years; my evenings were often preoccupied with elaborate fantasies of winning his favor. This was not a teacher or ‘star’ crush; this was a peer. (I have never had a teacher or ‘star’ crush in the first place, or if I had it was so far divorced from my experiences of actual attraction that it does not sensically go in the same category. My attractions have always been within-peer-group.) I beat him in a wrestling match at a friend’s ninth birthday party. Physical contact – yay! (Not an age period for snuggling, unfortunately, but I’d take what I could get.) ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/227 "2003-10-30T07:35:50Z")
OK, I can agree that you had a significant crush at a very early age. My question is how did you identify with it at the time? I can very easily understand that people will mature at different rates. Therefore it should be possible for people to have feelings of attraction at all kinds of ages. So, I can easlily accept that a person can become, let’s say, 21 and decide he/she is gay. At which time, he might very well identify ealier relationships as childishly homosexual. But I still find it difficult to imagine a person at 11 being able to understand the concepts necessary to determine his own sexuality coherently. And absent this, I find I have a problem with kids identifying themselves as gay. Once again, I’m really not trying to judge homosexuals or homosexuality. I’m just exploring my own ideas regarding the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/228 "2003-10-30T13:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Oh my god Shodan, I am shaking with rage. I have basically come to write off almost everything you say because I cannot fathom how to get through to you that you ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ENGAGE WHAT I ACTUALLY SAY, and instead INSIST on clinging to your DISHONEST twisting of it. You are the most egregious offender of this bullshit, and here you lecture someone ELSE on it? > \*\* It was quoted from your own post. If you are withdrawing your statement, you might want to make that clearer. If you don’t like the logical consequences of a position, reconsider the opinion. Other than that, your anger management issues are not my problem. I feel no particular obligation to respond as you direct to OPs which, by your own admission, are not meant to achieve anything, and are merely an excuse to add stigma to terms which you want to use as an insult. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **Unless you are willing to honestly go back over your own behavior in this regard, or withdraw this bullshit from gobear, you will be the very first doper in my nearly five years here that I will put in my ignore file.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > \*\*3. Don’t say or imply that someone is on your ignore list. > \*\* From the Pit rules, but I imagine things aren’t a lot different here in GD. Knock yourself out. Try to avoid the third Billy Goat Gruff. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/229 "2003-10-30T14:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Well, at least now you can no longer say I didn’t answer you can you? Even if it is an overly simplistic answer. \*\* You never answered the question you asked; only the question you rephrased it as. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/230 "2003-10-30T15:01:31Z")
In the closest I can approach my understanding of the time? I had evidence that I liked boys, or at least one boy in specific. (And again, this carries over into my adult sexuality; as a general rule I am attracted to very specific people, and not to people in general.) I had the cultural understanding that “liking boys” was the sort of thing that led to “relationships”, and the cultural understanding that the expectation was that “boys like girls” and “girls like boys”. I also had the understanding that admitting to “liking” someone was liable to open me up for abuse and teasing from my peers if I did so before I was older, for reasons I did not really comprehend. I think I first heard of homosexuality when I was around nine or ten; the understanding I had of it was that sometimes “boys like boys” and “girls like girls”. Had I been male, with the experiences I’d had, my response to this concept would have been, “Ah! That’s me!” Otherwise, I would have carried on liking boys in the absence of knowledge that there was a common term for it, which is how the non-mainstream aspects of my sexuality persisted until I found terminology as an adult. I think identifying a primary attraction type is not especially difficult for at least some people; I wish I understood the origin of the idea that children are some sort of sexless larvae that go through a chrysalis period at puberty and become completely different. Many young children masturbate; many young children form attractions; many young children’s early experiences and fantasies have very strong parallels with their adult orientations. Not all, but enough that the idea that it’s safe to assume that it’s impossible to know this sort of thing strikes me as indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/231 "2003-10-30T15:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > In the interests of dispelling ignorance, may I urge **IzzyR** to rent [Trembling Before G\_d](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0278102/combined)? However he may feel about homosexuality, to say that there is any group that does not contain gay people is silly. I am reminded of the time the Korean Minister of Health said that AIDS could never be a problem in South Korea because there were no gay Koreans. > > In any event, I am leaving the argumentation to more able folks like **Lissener**. Prejudice is irrational, and so rationality has no sway over it. There is no argument I can advance that would show **Shodan** , **Svt4Him** and **IzzyR** that I and other gay folks are as deserving of protection of the law as they. Hmm… Trembling Before G-D… now where have I heard about that before? Hey, have you ever considered actually reading the thread, what with you being such a big ignorance fighter and all? Give it a shot. Speaking of South Korea, what is the incidence of homosexuality in that country? Have any data on that, or do you just know where you hung out when you lived there? Here’s a chance for you to dispel some more ignorance. And speaking of rational/irrational, the striking thing about this thread in that regard is how one sided this debate is - in my favor. I’ve given a rationale for believing that incidence is significantly lower, as well as a basis for allowing this possibility. Almost none of my many opponents here have even bothered to provide any rational basis for their insistence that incidence of homosexuality is the same in different cultures - it’s been all bluff and bluster and empty assertions that IzzyR is naive and out of touch with reality etc. (The only exception is has been those who have insisted that sexual orientation is not affected at all by any environmental factors, but this contradicts scientific consensus and common sense, as above.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/232 "2003-10-30T15:03:31Z")
Shodan, the only item you keep returning to to object to is that I’m saying that only people who are willing to have homosexual sex, or who are not bothered by the imagery conjured up by homosexual sex, are not homophobes. This has been addressed time after time after time. I, along with many others in this thread, have made a very clear distinction–time after time after time–between _homosexuality_ and _acts of homosexual sex_. Nonetheless, you continue to ignore that distinction in order to have something outrageous to object to. Whether I figure out how to use my ignore list or not, your insistant dishonesty on this topic has left you without a bloodsoaked shred of credibility. Just because you can type doesn’t mean that everything you say–or in your case, _anything_ you say–is worthy of response. Unless you acknowledge that you understand that this distinction has been made, and stop making things up to object to, you’re not longer a party in this debate as far as I am concerned. And personally, though I won’t make this a dealbreaker, I think you should apologize to **gobear** for your egregious hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/233 "2003-10-30T15:15:45Z")
Zahava said, “Kalhoun- You ask why religious people would worship a G-d so full of hate that they’d be asked to throw their own child away. But has anyone said that they believe that this is what is required of them? I may think my gay child should live celibate (just as I would if I had a straight child who never married), but that doesn’t mean I throw my child out on the street, disown them, or anything else implied by “throw my child away.” Hoping they live within a set of guidelines doesn’t mean I’m severing our relationship and never seeing them again; it just means that I have certain hopes as to how they will live.” There are TONS of gays who have been thrown out of the house, disowned, shunned, beaten, and hated for coming out to their families. Some religions suggest that they be killed. There are people on these very boards who have been thrown away by their families. While you may not respond so harshly, it is hardly uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/234 "2003-10-30T15:18:48Z")
* * * ## Originally posted by KellyM pervert, I never said what you’re potentially attributing to me. ## Sorry. My bad. These threads are getting very difficult to follow. I appologize. I think you’re referring to something I said. And I stand by it. The sex act does not a homosexual make. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/235 "2003-10-30T15:44:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilairen \* > \*\*I think identifying a primary attraction type is not especially difficult for at least some people; I wish I understood the origin of the idea that children are some sort of sexless larvae that go through a chrysalis period at puberty and become completely different. Many young children masturbate; many young children form attractions; many young children’s early experiences and fantasies have very strong parallels with their adult orientations. Not all, but enough that the idea that it’s safe to assume that it’s impossible to know this sort of thing strikes me as indefensible. \*\* The origin of the idea is simply the fact that people grow constantly in their conceptual understanding of the universe (themselves included). I did not mean to suggest that people do not have sexual urges at different (and therefore sometimes young) ages. Only that the understanding of those urges at such an early age may not be sufficient to make such a long lasting decision as “sexual orientation”. I would make the same judgement if my 11 yr old came to me and said “I will marry person X or no one at all”. I would understand that such an impulse is a “crush” and not really long term love. As you say, it is quite parallel to adult love. But it is certainly not the same thing. > [@](#): > > I think I first heard of homosexuality when I was around nine or ten; the understanding I had of it was that sometimes “boys like boys” and “girls like girls”. This is part of the reason I am having trouble understanding some points of this issue. I certainly liked boys and girls throughout my life. I still do. But that is not what is meant by the use of the quotes. That is like is not the same as “like”. The fact that we do not have a simple word for the difference is a testement to the fact that the difference is not simple. Also, in relation to the OP, I think the fact that your earlier feelings were supported by the cultural norms certainly must have influenced your thoughts about them. My only point being that gay people must go through a serious “confusion” stage. Where they have urges, fantasies, emotions, etc. which they cannot easily place into the context of the world as they understand it. I’m not saying that their feelings are wrong, just that sexual feelings are complex at any age. And they are even more difficult to understand when society does not support them. I suppose this is an assumption I am making. I do not have sufficient experience being gay to know. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > I think you’re referring to something I said. And I stand by it. The sex act does not a homosexual make. Thanks for tracing that back. I’m only following these couple of threads as an aside, and they are getting quite long. But perhaps you can help clear this up for me. I understand that sexual orientation does not derive from any particular sexual act. And I understand that a person can have _some_ understanding of their interests at a very early age. But I seriously question how a youth can understand sexuality thouroughly enough to declare something like homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/236 "2003-10-30T15:51:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmm… Trembling Before G-D… now where have I heard about that before? Hey, have you ever considered actually reading the thread, what with you being such a big ignorance fighter and all? Give it a shot. I must have missed that post. Sue me. > [@](#): > > Speaking of South Korea, what is the incidence of homosexuality in that country? Have any data on that, or do you just know where you hung out when you lived there? Here’s a chance for you to dispel some more ignorance. Thr incidence is irrelevant. The Minister of Health said there were no Korean homosexuals, so it only takes one to prove him wrong. The incidence of homosexuality is likely the same as in the US, but the repressive social climate ensures that gay people are invisible in Korean society. From [thegully.com](http://thegully.com): > [@](#): > > In a clinical setting, the concept of “homosexuality” was first introduced in Korea in 1970 by D. S. Han in a case study published in the Journal of Korean Neuropsychiatry, entitled “Sexual Perversions in Korea.” The research, based on records of homosexual patients from the 1960’s, concluded that the reason why their numbers were small was that Koreans were sexually more mature than Westerners. > > Korean psychiatry forged its own views of homosexuality by repeating ad nauseam its own, home-grown gender-based ideological drivel, and strategically importing Western views of homosexuality as perversion. Even today, when homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness, Korean psychiatry still classifies it as a behavioral disorder, socially unacceptable and dysfunctional. Although there is an increasingly open gay presence in South Korea to a degree that was unimaginable a few years ago (here’s a list of [gay resources in Seoul](http://www.utopia-asia.com/korseoul.htm)–when I lived there we had three lousy bars), gay people live lives of exclusion and oppression that make the US look like gay paradise. [quote] Almost none of my many opponents here have even bothered to provide any rational basis for their insistence that incidence of homosexuality is the same in different cultures - it’s been all bluff and bluster and empty assertions that IzzyR is naive and out of touch with reality etc. [quote] Sorry, **Izzy** , but you have yet to demonstrate that you know anything about homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/237 "2003-10-30T15:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > I must have missed that post. Sue me. No, I’ve said it in multiple posts - this issue has been thrashed out at some length. > [@](#): > > Thr incidence is irrelevant. The Minister of Health said there were no Korean homosexuals, so it only takes one to prove him wrong. No the incidence is the only thing that is relevant, because that is what we happen to be discussing in this thread. I’ve never denied that there might be a tiny percentage of gays, and have said so in multiple posts, which again you have failed to read or absorb. > [@](#): > > The incidence of homosexuality is likely the same as in the US Undoubtedly you’ve had some divine revelation which has informed you of this likelihood. Can’t see any other basis. > [@](#): > > Sorry, **Izzy** , but you have yet to demonstrate that you know anything about homosexuality. aka bluff and bluster and empty assertions. More of same. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/238 "2003-10-30T16:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Shodan, the only item you keep returning to to object to is that I’m saying that only people who are willing to have homosexual sex, or who are not bothered by the imagery conjured up by homosexual sex, are not homophobes. > > This has been addressed time after time after time. I, along with many others in this thread, have made a very clear distinction–time after time after time–between _homosexuality_ and _acts of homosexual sex_. Nonetheless, you continue to ignore that distinction in order to have something outrageous to object to.\*\* I think threads are getting confused, which might be part of the problem. The only reference you have made to orientation vs. behavior in **this** thread was back on the first page, where you asserted that gays and their supporters would argue that orientation is inborn, whereas others would argue that it is a choice. If it helps, I posted a response on the “Homophobia definition” thread where I made it as clear as I could that it is gay sex acts only that are officially objected to by those on the other side of the debate. No mainstream group that I am aware of teaches or believes that homosexual orientation is inherently sinful. They do teach that homosexual acts are sinful. And I do not believe that orientation is a choice. While I find the evidence of genetic causes to be equivocal, I would agree that people do not choose which sex to be attracted to. They **do** choose who to have sex with, or whether to have sex at all. As far as I can tell, what you are objecting to most in **this** thread is that no one will give you the bigoted and hate-filled response you seem to be seeking so desperately. The only hateful response to date has come from you, with your “nailing his hands to the wall” and "brainwashing’ references. **IzzyR** responded that he hoped it would not make him love his son the less, but that he would not change his opinions about homosex. And you immediately tried to force him to say that he would with emotional blackmail about suicide statistics. You have made it rather clear that you are looking for someone on which to vent. God knows why. But it is more than a little unfair to get upset when other people don’t volunteer for your whipping boy. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*And personally, though I won’t make this a dealbreaker, I think you should apologize to **gobear** for your egregious hypocrisy. \*\* No, I don’t think I will. **gobear** accused me of wanting to deny him the equal protection of the law. In a subsequent post, he made it clear that he meant that he wanted a **change** in the law, not the protection of existing law, or at least he wanted a major change and extension in the interpretation of existing law. This is, in my view, a very different matter. Although I appreciate his clarification, I don’t agree that it is hypocritical to be a strict constructionist of the Constitution. And I reject the notion that I have ever advocated that laws against gay-bashing should not be enforced. If that is his implication. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/239 "2003-10-30T16:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pervert \* > **The fact that we do not have a simple word for the difference is a testement to the fact that the difference is not simple.** Or a testament to the general prudishness of English-speaking cultures. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/240 "2003-10-30T16:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*Or a testament to the general prudishness of English-speaking cultures. \*\* Yes. This is certainly part of the problem. Many sexual issues cannot be discussed because of cultural squeamishness. And of course, this contirbutes to a lack of common ground for discussing such issues. Which, of course, leads to the confusion over terms that are used in these threads. All of which would tend to support my opinion that the decision to recognize one’s homosexuality is not a simple thing. (I know, it can be interpreted the other way also.) I don’t know if this will help, but perhaps I can ask my question from another angle. I’m trying to get at an understanding of the non sexual part of homosexuality. If a scholarship was meant only for homosexuals. “How would they know”? If you were administering the funds and suspected that a candidate were fibbing to get money, what sort of things would you do to make sure? I’m not sure, but I think the answers might be instructional for those straights among us who are considering what to say to a gay child. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/241 "2003-10-30T17:03:06Z")
Shodan, you have not objected to A SINGLE LEGITIMATE POINT. Your three main objections are to the outrageous idea that only people who are willing to suck my dick are not homophobes; that I threatened to nail my child’s hands to the wall; and that I believe the only way to convert someone to christianity is through brainwashing. The first point has been REPEATEDLY addressed; the second was OBVIOUSLY a joke, which has alse been repeatedly pointed out; and the third was A) transparent hyperbole, and B) not a blanket statement, but simply a reference to those conversions that ARE brainwashing, never suggesting that ALL conversions are brainwashing. In the absence of any legitimate objections, I must assume that you are actually in my camp, which creeps me out just a bit. I also must reiterate that your accusing **gobear** of making shit up–whether he did so or not–is the rankest hypocrisy, as NO ONE is a greater offender of this than you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347.md?page=13)