# Will your children be gay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347 "2003-10-24T16:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/21 "2003-10-24T19:33:58Z")
Thinking about hypothetical choices that you’ve dreamed up? No. If it comes to such a choice I’ll think about it then. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/22 "2003-10-24T19:34:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Well, which do you think is more likely: > > • Being born an Orthodox Jew causes heterosexuality > > • Being _raised_ an Orthodox Jew causes gays to live lives of closeted despair \*\* **Eve** , you’ve set up a false dichotomy because you’ve assumed that one’s sexual orientation is genetically determined, and I think you’re smart enough to know you’re doing this. (FWIW, I’ve never understood why many homosexual folks argue so much that it’s genetic. I think that (a) homophobia is stupid whether homosexuality has a genetic cause or a person simply chooses it and (b) if ever it’s conclusively proven somehow that it _is_ genetic, homophobes will not belive the study and will still be homophobic.) ---
**Author:** ![patchbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dc4da7/32.png) [@patchbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/patchbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/23 "2003-10-24T19:55:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > **You’ve missed the point of my example. My point is that if you’re in a place that voices a strict disapproval of gays, the gays people don’t cease to exist- they just don’t tell you they do exist.** Couldn’t agree more. For many years, homosexuals to me were those folks that Benny Hill and Monty Python kept referring to in their skits. Always somewhere else, never seen. Then, one day, a good friend of mine decided he wasn’t going to hide in the closet anymore and told me he was gay. I’d known him for years, and I believe my response was, “And your point is…?” It didn’t matter to me because he was still the same person. Something interesting happened afterwards, though. Once folks discovered I didn’t have anything against homosexuals, I found out other people I knew were gay. I was introduced to new circles of friends, because folks knew I wasn’t going to be repulsed or judgmental about who they were. Right now, I’m good friends with over a dozen gays/lesbians, and I am casual friends with many more. You want to find out who around you isn’t straight? Don’t be the sort of person who’s judgmental/hateful towards those who don’t share your sexual orientation. You’ll be amazed at what you discover. –Patch ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/24 "2003-10-24T19:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\*Thinking about hypothetical choices that you’ve dreamed up? No. If it comes to such a choice I’ll think about it then. \*\* Indulge me, Izzy, please. Otherwise it looks like you’re ducking the central question of this entire discussion. Don’t make me waste a whole bunch of time reading your past posts to demonstrate that you’re probably less likely to refuse to play hypothetical games when the subject is a different one. I’m not trying to corner you, I’m trying to get people–you as well as any reading lurkers–to understand that, if you have children, it’s a scenario that you’re just as likely to encounter, say, an accident that leaves them paraplegic, or not getting into Harvard, or whatever. Can we please explore this hypothetical question a little further? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/25 "2003-10-24T20:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TaxGuy \* > \*\*(FWIW, I’ve never understood why many homosexual folks argue so much that it’s genetic. I think that (a) homophobia is stupid whether homosexuality has a genetic cause or a person simply chooses it and (b) if ever it’s conclusively proven somehow that it _is_ genetic, homophobes will not belive the study and will still be homophobic.) \*\* Can we not let this tangent derail this discussion? This will not be resolved here, so let’s just agree that the gay people who participate in this thread are likely to believe that orientation is innate, while those addressed in the OP are more likely to believe that it’s a choice. Can we take that as a given and return to the subject at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/26 "2003-10-24T20:12:34Z")
Izzy, why is your particular brand of religion “immune” to homosexuality when the rest of the Jews aren’t? I can’t believe you truly think it is a learned behavior. There are a ton of gays on these boards who lived in anti-gay environments and are still gay. What force-field do you rely on to keep “the gays” from penetrating your world? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/27 "2003-10-24T20:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TaxGuy \* > **Eve, you’ve set up a false dichotomy because you’ve assumed that one’s sexual orientation is genetically determined, and I think you’re smart enough to know you’re doing this.** I don’t quite get what you’re saying. **Izzy** says that “there are no gay Orthodox Jews.” I am saying it’s much more likely that the gay Orthodox Jews are so far in the closet that they’re in the next apartment. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/28 "2003-10-24T20:28:29Z")
I used to work with a woman who was mighty (and aggressively and judgmentally) religious. She had two sons. One of them I felt pretty sure would someday have to struggle with this issue. It made me sad to think that his mother was fostering an atmosphere that would serve to make his struggles, if such does occur, extremely difficult and painful. Not to mention the sadness I felt just thinking that he was gonna have to go through this without his mother’s help or support. I saw this a selfish, and as a failure of her parenting; I felt that by not considering this hypothetical possibility, she was indulging her discomfort over her son’s happiness. Izzy, Svt, what is your reaction to this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/29 "2003-10-24T20:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > Don’t you think it behooves you as a parent to think about it? Would you rather be blindsided? We don’t relish the idea of writing a will, but we understand the necessity. (Yeah, I know, we’re ALL gonna die, but we write a will because we don’t know WHEN we’re gonna die; that “surprise!” is the parallel I’m drawing.) > [@](#): > > From another thread, lissener wrote: > …what is it that so fascinates fundamentalists about homosexuality? Why is it such a pet issue for so many of them? By what twist of logic do they even consider it even to be remotely relevant to them and the lifestyle they have chosen? So, which is it? Something that isn’t “remotly relevant” to deeply religious people (let’s not call them fundies), or something of such import that one must muse over it’s impact on one’s family life? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/30 "2003-10-24T20:57:50Z")
**John** , there’s a disconnect between something that might affect one’s person life (as having a gay child might) and the relentless drive some of the hyper-religious feel to invalidate, outlaw and maybe exterminate homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/31 "2003-10-24T21:19:33Z")
So this is a total bust then? Not one such person is willing to deal with this issue directly and honestly? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/32 "2003-10-24T21:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > (Note: please try to refrain from focusing entirely on how I framed the question. I hope that, though it’s hardly bulletproof, you’re able to understand the question I’m asking, and who I am asking it of. Well, I often don’t see things which are obvious to others, so I apologize if this seems pedantic. But the impression I got from your OP is that you consider the “anti-gay” position to be a result of considering homosexuals to be the “other”, and emotionally distancing oneself from homosexuals. It is not arrived at through considering hoosexuals as actual human beings, but as theoretical beings never really encountered. People are able to hold these attitudes because they can do so without ever having to confront the implications. To put it most crassly, the question is almost “Do you support this sort of treatment just of homosexuals, or of ‘real people’, too?” Is this an accurate description of your question? Also, I’d like to point out that Catholics, like many Chrstian denominations, prohibits women from being priests, even though many Catholics have women as daughters. So simply having a child who is X does not necessarily mean that one supports full equality for X. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/33 "2003-10-24T21:36:12Z")
Let me put it simply, crassly or not: I’m perfectly willing to accept that some people will not understand the OP. I’m not, however, willing to bog down in clarifying it into the ground. If you understand it, fine; you’re welcome to participate. If not, I’m sorry, and perhaps you’ll have better luck with my next OP. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/34 "2003-10-24T21:48:50Z")
Is it fair to ask the reverse of this question? What if you’re an openly homosexual parent who’s raised a child for a number of years, and the child comes out and says: “Mom/Dad, I love you, and I love you for the job you’ve done raising me, but I have to admit something to you. I’m afraid to bring this up because of your views, but I need you to understand and accept me for who I am. For the past few years, I’ve been living as a fundamentalist Christian. I’ve been going to Bible study and given the issues a lot of serious thought and prayer, and I agree with them. I know these people frighten you and disagree with the values they’ve taught me, but I can’t change what’s in my heart. I still love you, and I always will, but I’m asking you to understand my choice of lifestyle. This is who I am.” If the OP’s question comes down to “Can a person with a strong set of values maintain their absolute love of their child even when their value systems clash?,” then I’d have to believe that the answer from both sides can and should be yes. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/35 "2003-10-24T22:02:14Z")
[25% to 40%](http://www.miami.edu/com/workshop/1998/page12.htm) [of](http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/States/Ohio/editorial.html) [homeless](http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/States/Wisconsin/articles.html) [teens](http://www.hopedance.org/issue21/articles21/cc-pflag.htm) [are](http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-15/07brzoz.h15) [gay](http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/1997/09/29/us/us.1.html) [identified;](http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fsglbt.pdf) 50% of THOSE have been KICKED OUT INTO THE STREETS by their family. 33% of teen suicides are gay identified. Izzy, Svt, et al., does that give you pause at all? Would you rather subject your child to those higher likelihoods of homelessness or suicide than accept who they are, without reservation? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/36 "2003-10-24T23:51:09Z")
I’m not coping very well with the possibility that my daughter might be straight. I think I’d be much happier if she turned out to be lesbian, although I feel vaguely guilty for thinking that. I find **IzzyR** ’s assertion that there are no gay Orthodox Jews absolutely remarkable. As best I can figure it, it’s his assertion that there are no gay Orthodox Jews because it’s impossible for a child raised in the proper Orthodox manner to become gay. He’s free to make that assertion, but he should expect that most people (including myself) will find that assertion less than credible, if not laughable, and expect it to be taken as evidence of a serious disconnect with the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/37 "2003-10-24T23:53:25Z")
Y’know, **Kelly** , when your daughter gets to be a teenager, she will announce to you that not only is she straight, but is a born-again Christian and a Republican, _just to piss you off._ ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/38 "2003-10-24T23:56:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*So this is a total bust then? Not one such person is willing to deal with this issue directly and honestly? \*\* Sorry, but I think that was unfair on **Svt4him** she does seem to have made some effort in answering your question. I’ll try and answer **Loquitor’s** reversal, though I am not homosexual myself. If a child of mine decided they wanted to be religiously extreme (be it Christian, Muslim, Moonie, Scientologist) I would try and persuade them against it because I see these things as bad. If they insisted, and showed themselves to be resolved, then they would receive my full support in the religion they chose. In family gatherings I would respect their religious requirements, and do all short of accepting their religion myself that I could do for them. I would not brag about their religion to others, but should a discussion about religion and children come up, I would be happy to say my child supported an extreme religion. I would say I tried to dissuade my child, but that I am happy that they have made a resolute decision and I will go along with that decision and support it to the hilt. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/39 "2003-10-24T23:59:07Z")
… I would be somewhat upset if my child believed I was somehow a failure for not esspousing their religion, but in no way would I consider my child in any way a failure for espousing the religion they chose. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347/40 "2003-10-25T00:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Y’know, **Kelly** , when your daughter gets to be a teenager, she will announce to you that not only is she straight, but is a born-again Christian and a Republican, _just to piss you off._ \*\* ::: Poly has Michael J. Fox sitcom flashbacks::: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-your-children-be-gay/209347.md?page=3)