# William the Bloody Awful Poet, or Has Spike really changed, and if so, how much **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 8, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938 "2002-06-08T04:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/41 "2002-06-10T19:23:26Z")
But see **Green Fool** , I don’t have to apply it to a real world situation because Spike is a **vampire** and Buffy is a vampire **slayer**. These things don’t exist IRL. You can watch Buffy on several different levels–one of which is metaphorical. Just because you can, however, doesn’t mean you have to. _And_, I have absolutely no problem defending Spike because I know what happens in books, onTV, and in movies, and my reactions to what happens has nothing to dowith my real life. It’s a big game of make-believe…that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/42 "2002-06-10T23:59:56Z")
Warning, spoilers may follow: First of all, I think we have to discount anything that comes out of the Watcher’s Council. They regularly manipulate and lie to the Slayers. It certainly would not be above them to lie about the nature of vampires if it made the Slayer easier to control. Second, there is some evidence that, when a person is turned into a vampire, their soul doesn’t completely vanish. Look at the Judge from season two. He’s supposedly is able to sense the “good” in people and burn it out of them. His first victim? A vampire. He also indicates that he could do the same to Spike, but doesn’t out of some form of gratitude for being reassembled. Now, “good” and “soul” are not necessarily synonymous, but it is telling that the way Joss tells us that Angel has lost his soul is by having the Judge be unable to destroy him. I think what this means is that when someone is turned into a vampire, sometimes a reminant of a soul is left behind. How much seems to be random, or based on some unknown factor (it might even be a defect peculiar to vampires descended from Drucilla, who, as a schizophrenic psychic, is probably fairly unique in vampirdom) Normally, this has little to no effect on the vampire, who is dominated by the impulses of the demon spirit. In Spike, however, the demon is restrained by the chip, allowing the flicker of a soul that was left in him some measure of control. Hence, Spike’s gravitation towards the Scoobies and eventual infatuation with Buffy, his protectivness towards Dawn, and his respect for Joyce. Oh, and his help in the prevention of at least three apocalypses. Now, this isn’t to say that there are two “people” in one body, Spike the vampire and William the human. I don’t think that’s even true for Angel. I think the Angel/Angelus split personality thing is a rationalization on Angel’s behalf, a way of distancing himself from his actions when he was without a soul. It certainly never came up before he lost his soul the second time, and I don’t think was even mentioned until he got his own show. Rather, these are subconscious elements of Spike’s psyche. Hence the turmoil he’s been in for the last few seasons: the powerful but restrained demon spirit is in conflict with the diminished remnants of his humanity. The attempted rape was a result of both the soul and the demon wanting the same thing (sex with Buffy) and the demon losing it’s restraints. When Buffy started fighting back, and he came to his senses, part of him, as **stankow** put it, was thoughly repugged. Over the last two seasons Spike has been more and more disturbed by his own actions, even as his declarations of his own evilness has grown louder and louder. Yes, his baser instincts almost always win out: he tried to rape Buffy, he tried to kill that woman in the alley when he thought the chip was broken, he fed off the woman at the Bronze Dru killed for him. But each time he has struggled with his actions, either before or after. Look at the amount of time Spike spends psyching himself up before he tries to kill the woman in the alley, and contrast it with the casual way Angelus snapped Jenny Calender’s neck. Even though Spike consistently loses the struggle, the fact that he is struggling at all is remarkable, and, to me, makes him the most interesting character on the show. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/43 "2002-06-11T07:01:28Z")
The fact that Buffy eventually gave in on previous occasions has no bearing on this attempted rape. None. Previous sexual behavior of the intended victim is inadmissable in courts for a reason: it’s irrelevant. Whatever Buffy may have done previously, she still had the right to say no on this occasion, which she did. Repeatedly. Buffy refused consent, Spike attempted to force her. It isn’t even close. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/44 "2002-06-11T16:17:53Z")
In **erl** ’s Television High Court of No General Consequence it is admissable, **Number Six** , and it would make a difference. I unfortunately missed most of season 6 so I cannot make an informed judgement, but _if_ their relationship was based on a violent cat-and-mouse game, then I can appreciate Spike’s behavior and his subsequent frustration and guilt. He never wanted to rape her, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/45 "2002-06-11T19:37:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Previous sexual behavior of the intended victim is inadmissable in courts for a reason: it’s irrelevant. Which court would this be? Is The Judge presiding? What do you swear the witness in with? ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/46 "2002-06-11T19:50:41Z")
Well, I’ve already expressed my opinion on Spike up to the end of season six. So I’ll try for a hijack instead. Is it just me or is his “William the Bloody” nickname kinda stupid. I mean - he got it for writing “bloody awful poetry”. Do my extremely lame posts get me the name “Trion the Extremely”? Just once I’d like to see someone say to Mr. the Bloody “Did you know your last name’s an adverb?” ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/47 "2002-06-11T20:42:29Z")
Treading on dangerous ground there, **Trion**. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/48 "2002-06-12T00:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Just once I’d like to see someone say to Mr. the Bloody “Did you know your last name’s an adverb?” Actually, it’s an adjective. And I think he re-earned the title after being vamped. Something about a railroad spike, no? I’m guessing that jerk with the handlebar moustache was the first to go. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/49 "2002-06-12T02:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\* > > Actually, it’s an adjective.\*\* Um, no. I’m pretty sure it’s an adverb. The phrase “bloody awful poet” … The adjective “awful” modifies the noun “poet”. The adverb “bloody” modifies the adjective “awful”. Adverbs modify adjectives. In this case “bloody” acts like the word “very”. Thus an adverb. I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong. > [@](#): > > \*\*And I think he re-earned the title after being vamped. Something about a railroad spike, no? \*\* Well, that’s how William earned the nickname Spike. It’s entirely possible that he was a particularly bloody vampire (here “bloody” acts as an adjective) and that could have supported the former nickname. As all vampires are somewhat bloody, I’m sure that has a lot to do with it’s continued use. It’s just that now I’m constantly aware of the fact that he orginally earned it in a manner that seems kinda stupid and … well, toothless. But hey, I’m sure I’m the only one who cares. ---
**Author:** ![MattTheCroc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MattTheCroc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MattTheCroc)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/50 "2002-06-12T10:19:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Adverbs modify adjectives Actually, as the name suggests, they modify verbs and generally end in “ly” as in “Spike quickly runs”. And I seem to recall there was a line when Spike was human about how listening to William’s poetry was like having a railway spike shoved through one’s head… so _both_ his nicknames came from his poetry… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/51 "2002-06-12T10:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MattTheCroc \* > **Actually, as the name suggests, they modify verbs and generally end in “ly” as in “Spike quickly runs”.** They (adverbs) also modify adjectives and other adverbs. **Trion** is right. In the context of “bloody awful poet,” it’s an adverb. * * * Fixed coding. – Dex ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/52 "2002-06-12T11:16:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MattTheCroc \* > \*\* > > Actually, as the name suggests, they modify verbs and generally end in “ly” as in “Spike quickly runs”.\*\* C’mon people. Am I the only one who remembers his “Schoolhouse Rock”? Adverbs modify verbs, adjectives and other adverbs. I shall even provide a [cite:](http://www.thinkpig.org/adverb/adverbs.htm) > [@](#): > > Adverbs don’t always end with -ly, as we know from our good/well example. For that matter, adverbs don’t only modify verbs. They can also modify adjectives and even other adverbs! For example consider (carefully) the following example: > > \*Blakeney: I say, Your Majesty, that’s a deucedly awful coat! You should have your tailor flogged. > > Prince: Od’s fish, Blakeney! That’s a very good suggestion. I knew I kept you around for something. (turns to tailor) Treadle, you’re to be flogged, wot? \* > > In Blakeney’s line we have an adverb (deucedly) modifying an adjective (awful) modfying a noun (coat). But as I mentioned, adverbs don’t have to end in -ly. In the Prince’s reply, ‘very’ is an adverb modifying the adjective ‘good’. \*\* > [@](#): > > And I seem to recall there was a line when Spike was human about how listening to William’s poetry was like having a railway spike shoved through one’s head… so _both_ his nicknames came from his poetry… 🙂 \*\* Don’t remember that one myself. If true, it’s funny. I just wish thay hadn’t taken some of the “bite” out of Spike’s backstory for the sake of a joke. Note: Upon preview I see **stankow** has clarified the adverb issue as well. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/53 "2002-06-12T15:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t remember that one myself. If true, it’s funny. I just wish thay hadn’t taken some of the “bite” out of Spike’s backstory for the sake of a joke. It’s true. I always pictured Spike overhearing that line right before he went into talk to Cecily (they don’t show Spike’s reaction to what the guy said). Later, after he is vamped, he decides to give the guy what he wants–a spike through the ear. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/54 "2002-06-12T15:48:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Fool \* > Spike has his soul back which effectively makes him William… William the Bloody was weak, pathetic, and trivial. Now he’s been in the passenger seat for the last few hundred years observing what Spike has been up to (remember Spike is not William, Spike is a demon). Maybe William really liked the power which he saw SPike using. William is in control now… He doesn’t love Buffy. He doesn’t care about Dawn. I think William is going to be big bad for the season. While Spike the Demon is the happy alternative. > It will explore similar themes as Willows dark turn with the difference being that William isn’t evil out of pain and vengeance. William is evil for the power and ego trip. Whoa, whoa, whoa. William has **not** been in the passenger seat for the last few hundred years - William (his soul, that is) wasn’t there at all. Sua ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/55 "2002-06-12T16:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > **Whoa, whoa, whoa. William has not been in the passenger seat for the last few hundred years - William (his soul, that is) wasn’t there at all.** Sure, that’s what the Watcher’s Council says, but let’s look at the evidence: All vampires remember who they were when they were humans. Not just memories like “Who’s the President,” but also skills (remember the newly born vampire who used his gymnastic-team skills against the Scoobs at the beginning of Season Three?), predilections (the vampire in Buffy’s birthday test killed his mother while a human and still had “a thing about mothers” while a vampire) and paranormal powers (Drusilla was a psycho as well as a psychic _before_ she was vamped). So what part of their human persona do vampires not get besides their soul, which appears to be responsible for nothing more than guilt? And of course, our very best test case – Liam/Angelus/Angel/Angelus/Angel has access to _all_ of his memories from all five of his incarnations, human, soulless vampire or souled vampire. He remembers what Angelus did and felt, not in the sense of an alcoholic being told what he did during a blackout, but as though he actually lived them, and Angelus remembers what Angel did and felt. To me, that indicates that Angel was “along for the ride” while Angelus was driving, and vice versa. Yes, the change from one to the other always seemed to knock him for a “Where am I? What am I doing here?” loop, but the memories came back eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/56 "2002-06-12T19:37:13Z")
Well, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/57 "2002-06-12T21:20:01Z")
Yes, the question of what, exactly, a soul constitutes or implies has never been addressed in Buffy. Even though in, IIRC, “Lie to me” Buffy tells that guy with the brain tumor literally that “you leave and a demon takes over” it has never seemed as simple as that. To add to **stankow** ’s post, the episode where Willow meets her parallel-world vamp twin and Buffy shuts up Angel just as he was going to correct her… it seems to me that the sould _does_ have a lot to do with how one feels about identity, but not a whole lot to do with what anyone would consider personality or memory. Or possibly even will. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/58 "2002-06-12T21:25:54Z")
**Stankow,** now we get into a philosophical discussion on the nature of the soul and of the self. Yes, vampires have the memories and (at least some of) the skills of the human who’s body they have taken over. And yes, from the experience of Darla, a human who is a former vampire has the memories of the vampire. But that doesn’t answer the question of whether the person was “there.” My intepretation is that this is a physical process - the memories are stored in the brain of the body that’s being tossed back and forth like a volleyball, but it doesn’t mean that the person was present when the events stored in the memory occurred. Look to Angel. When he got his soul back (just before Buffy tossed him into Hell), he didn’t remember what had happened. Eventually those memories came flooding back to him, but his human soul “found them out” after it was restored. (Ditto when he was first cursed.) And yes, it is not like being told what he did during a blackout. He remembers them because he gets access to the memories of the body. But that’s not the same thing as being there when the memories were formed. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/59 "2002-06-12T23:52:32Z")
Could be that getting demonized/ soulified is like waking up from a dream-like state. You’re you, you just don’t have the same inhibitions… ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Green\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Fool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/60 "2002-06-13T02:06:12Z")
… sort on the same tip as Barbarian is asking… The thing about the Evil Willow/Good Willow… I guess I should predecate that with VAMPIRE Evil Willow, since we had an Evil Willow that was not a vampire… anyway… tangent… What Angel was about to say in that episode (paraphrasing of course and conjecturing of course) was that the Demon has access to ALL your memories, emotions, and inner workings… So Vampy gay slutty evil Willow was that way because human souled Willow deep down inside of her had elements of herself that were Gay, slutty, and evil. And Sua… effectively gaining the memories of what someone did while in control of your body can be argued as being pretty damn close to being in there… I like your theory about the storage in the brain but I don’t see that much difference between that and being in the passenger seat. In fact, if anything yours can be seen as a worse scenario. Is you are there but unable to do anything (kind of like Cusacks character at the end of Being John Malkovich) you atleast have the detachment but if you aren’t there and when you get back you get all the first person memories of it… that is pretty intense. Come to think of it… both are terrible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938.md?page=4)