# William the Bloody Awful Poet, or Has Spike really changed, and if so, how much **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 8, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938 "2002-06-08T04:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/61 "2002-06-13T23:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Fool \* > \*\*I like your theory about the storage in the brain but I don’t see that much difference between that and being in the passenger seat. In fact, if anything yours can be seen as a worse scenario. Is you are there but unable to do anything (kind of like Cusacks character at the end of Being John Malkovich) you atleast have the detachment but if you aren’t there and when you get back you get all the first person memories of it… that is pretty intense. \*\* That’s exactly it, though. That’s why souled Angel has the personality he does. He feels continuous with vamp Angel–just now he has a conscience. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/62 "2002-06-14T03:40:41Z")
Would this mean to you, then, **foolsguinea** , that Spike-as-human or spike+soul, would still love Buffy? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/63 "2002-06-14T03:47:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by foolsguinea \* > \*\*…He feels continuous with vamp Angel–just now he has a conscience. \*\* I’d have to agree with this. The “soul” in the bufyverse seems to have more than just guilt (as a previous poster posited). The “soul” seems to contain guilt, shame, recrimination, remorse and regret. The soul seems to contain slightly more than the Jiminy Cricket of conscience, but less than a driving impetus to be noble. Angel, our easy example of what having a soul means in the buffyverse, was regretful of Angelus’ previous actions, but was not inspired to action before seeing Buffy. \ Obviously having a soul is not as important as having a sex drive. \ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/64 "2002-06-14T04:37:23Z")
Hey, **grandmother** brings up a good point. Angel moped around for a century and wasn’t inspired to actually start being noble until he met Buffy. Nobody is getting on Angel’s case though because he didn’t start being _good_ until he saw Buffy. Just because he had a soul didn’t mean he was _good_, he just wasn’t doing evil. He was kind of in the middle ground–couldn’t feed but wasn’t inspired to redeem himself. Spike can’t feed and is doing extraordinary things (for a vampire) _because_ of Buffy. Just like Angel started doing extraordinary things _because_ of Buffy. Love made both of them act. Loving Buffy set them both on the road to redemption. In Angel’s case, it was the result of having a soul first. In Spike’s case, in resulted in gaining (earning?) a soul. I think Spike’s journey is more impressive because he didn’t have to be _cursed_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/65 "2002-06-14T16:18:42Z")
\ somebody responded to one of my posts! Thanks Pepperlandgirl! A small nit-pick: When Angel’s soul was returned to him, he could still feed, he just was not comfortable doing so. Darla berates him, in the episode set during the Boxer Rebellion, for only eating murderers and other bad people. She challenges him to eat the missionary baby (whose family he’d spared the previous night) and he refused. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/66 "2002-06-15T19:19:25Z")
On a related topic- since some of us think that the Council might not be being straight up with the Slayers when it comes to the nature of vampires, d’ya think… Maybe they knew about Angelus having his soul stuffed back into his body, and not letting the lower echelons know about it? I mean, hey, a vamp’s a vamp, gotta stake 'em, right? And a vamp with a soul might just be perceived by some as a human being, and thus there might be a reluctance to introduce said vamp to Mr. Pointy… With the connections they have, and the amount of time they spend researching the folklore, legends, magicks, etc., you’d think they would have got word about something like that having happened, or at least that it was a doable thing. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/67 "2002-06-16T02:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\*On a related topic- since some of us think that the Council might not be being straight up with the Slayers when it comes to the nature of vampires, d’ya think… > \*\* They’ve certainly kept relevent information to themselves before. Little things like, oh say, that another Slayer had been chosen :eek:. Would’ve been good to give Giles a heads up on that one. Of course, if they had, we wouldn’t have had that really cool cliffhanger at the end of “What’s My Line Pt. 1”… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/68 "2002-06-16T20:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > They’ve certainly kept relevent information to themselves before. Little things like, oh say, that another Slayer had been chosen. Or details like, “If you live long enough to reach your eighteenth birthday party, we’re going to poison you and lock you up with the most psycho-batshit vampire we can find and see if he can’t kill you. You know, just for kicks.” ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/69 "2002-06-16T20:36:01Z")
Well, **Miller** , it wouldn’t be as much fun if it wasn’t a surprise… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/70 "2002-06-16T22:09:00Z")
BTW, if Faith got chosen because Buffy was “dead” for a few minutes- near drowning, revived by CPR, how come another nother Slayer didn’t appear in season six? I mean, Buffy was really _dead_ dead, buried, with Spike, Dawn and the Scoobies all grief striken (until Willow hit upon the grand scheme of doing that resurrection spell, which I’m sure the Council hadn’t figured on.) Maybe in season seven? Joss Whedon got a good explanation for that? Huh? Well? ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/71 "2002-06-16T22:15:07Z")
Buffy died, Kendra was called, Kendra died, Faith was called. The slayer “line” now follows Faith, not Buffy. Buffy could now die a zillion times and another slayer will not be called until Faith dies. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/72 "2002-06-18T22:42:16Z")
I’m with Glory (Glory!!!???) on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/73 "2002-06-18T23:20:15Z")
I had the name first! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/74 "2002-06-20T05:10:31Z")
So, anyone else think that James Marsters is, like, totally hot? (May even hold a candle to Garaint Wyn-Davies?) ---
**Author:** ![Cataclysm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Cataclysm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cataclysm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/75 "2002-06-20T14:22:06Z")
James Marsters is only hot when he’s Spike. In any other role he’s too tanned… I’ll keep my pasty white vampire thanks 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/76 "2002-06-20T17:33:38Z")
James Marsters is really dopey, IRL, IMHO. He’s gorgeous, and a great actor (he must because he’s nothing like Spike), but I was still surprised at how…goofy he is in interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/77 "2002-06-20T22:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Buffy died, Kendra was called, Kendra died, Faith was called. The slayer “line” now follows Faith, not Buffy. Buffy could now die a zillion times and another slayer will not be called until Faith dies. This is what _Joss_ says, but there’s nothing actually in the show to contradict the idea that there could be a third Slayer. And the season finale had a hint that maybe Joss is messing with our heads again. Buffy, speaking to Giles (paraphrasing here): “I died. It was my time. Someone else would have taken place.” Who? Faith, who is in prison, and who you despise? I don’t rule out the possibility of a third Slayer showing up in the last season, whatever Mr. Whedon has to say on the subject. The man isn’t trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/78 "2002-06-21T05:41:19Z")
Well, actually, **Miller** , I wouldn’t put it past the Council to arrange Faith’s demise in order to make it possible to choose another Slayer. They’ve done some pretty shady things already, and it was pretty obvious that the team of thugs they sent out to round Faith up and haul her in weren’t necessarily required to bring her back alive. Also, they didn’t seem to be very forthcoming with the goods on Glory when they felt their power base might be threatened by giving up the information, then there was that whole eighteenth birthday thing… So if the line follows Faith, there’s still a possibility of bringing another Slayer in for the next season. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/79 "2002-06-21T07:14:11Z")
Right, but even though Buffy’s tried to kill Faith before, I don’t think she’d get behind rubbing her out while in prison. So I think she might be expecting another Slayer to show up, regardless of what happened to Faith. Which, actually would be interesting. New Slayer shows up, Buffy thinks it’s cause she dies, then it’s revealed that the Council had killed Faith in order to call another Slayer. Shock! Angst! Asskicking! Maybe Giles admits to killing Ben at the end of season five, and Buffy wonders if he helped kill Faith. More shock! More angst! Probably less asskicking! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938/80 "2002-06-21T16:02:56Z")
Well, there is a lot of speculation flying around the buffy boards and the spoiler boards that the CoW is going to be the Big Bad next season, as Buffy explores her slayer roots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/william-the-bloody-awful-poet-or-has-spike-really-changed-and-if-so-how-much/112938.md?page=5)