# Willing to be teleported as in Star Trek? I'm not. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544 "2013-09-23T21:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/61 "2013-09-24T17:01:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A few questions that come to mind: > [ul] > [li]If you lose your soul and you can’t tell a difference, is that a bad thing? Are souls _actually desirable?_ Their main function appears to be to render you vulnerable to threats of torment in the afterlife.[/li][li]If you can lose your soul and not notice, was your soul ever “you” in the first place? Even if it has your memories and thinks like you, doesn’t that just make it a non-material version of the copies that a transporter makes? If one form of copying isn’t “you”, why is the other?[/li][li]If new versions of you get new souls, does this mean you can swamp the afterlife with copies of yourself? “Hi, I’m Kirk #3428.”[/li][/ul] I don’t know. > [@WhyNot](#): > > I’d do it, especially for visiting friends far away and going camping without packing a car first! > > Might Something Bad happen? Sure. But Something Bad happens with far greater frequency in cars, and I drive one of those every day anyway. Cars (and airplanes, and every other form of transport) don’t intentionally destroy the occupant first. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/62 "2013-09-24T17:26:31Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I think there’s a misconception that the Trek transporter scans you and turns you into information. If that were true, you could make copies as easily as you copy a file on your computer. > > Actually, it converts you into a matter stream (or “beam”), transmits that through subspace and reassembles your original particles back into you. But before it does that it stores you in a pattern buffer. If that is readable, then a replicator should be able to make a copy of you. They are quite inconsistent about this. When Mr. Scott was stored in the pattern buffer for decades, his friend died because his pattern did not get regenerated enough during the loop. That sounds like a repeater to me, and implies information. On the other hand, there was a show about the guy with the crush on Troi sitting in the middle of a transport for a long time when he saw the “ghosts” of missing scientists. I don’t see any implementation of a transporter where this would be possible. (And Mr. Scott didn’t seem to have be conscious for all that time.) But if you are, then that gets rid of the soul question because you have some sort of continuous consciousness during beaming. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/63 "2013-09-24T17:38:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But before it does that it stores you in a pattern buffer. If that is readable, then a replicator should be able to make a copy of you. > > They are quite inconsistent about this. When Mr. Scott was stored in the pattern buffer for decades, his friend died because his pattern did not get regenerated enough during the loop. That sounds like a repeater to me, and implies information. On the other hand, there was a show about the guy with the crush on Troi sitting in the middle of a transport for a long time when he saw the “ghosts” of missing scientists. I don’t see any implementation of a transporter where this would be possible. (And Mr. Scott didn’t seem to have be conscious for all that time.) But if you are, then that gets rid of the soul question because you have some sort of continuous consciousness during beaming. And don’t forget Redjak from post 58 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/64 "2013-09-24T18:27:41Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > And don’t forget Redjak from post 58 No problem. They clearly have to transmit all the molecules and reassemble them in the right relative position. Why there would be a setting not to do this is another interesting question. Equipment on starships must be like Batman’s utility belt - designed to meet the need of future plots. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/65 "2013-09-24T18:46:40Z")
This is an old theme in sci-fi, whether we are talking about clones or transporter duplicates. How much is the copy “me”? Does he/she have legal rights to my stuff? What if my wife likes him better than me? etc. I don’t think Star Trek really attempted to answer these philosophical questions. They seemed to ignore them. 🙂 * * * It seems to me that there is no reason why the transporter _couldn’t_ create a clone army of Kirk’s or Khan Signh’s, by bypassing the subroutine that decontructs the original. I don’t recall the canon explanation for this. The replicator of TNG uses transporter technology to create stuff from a stored template in the database. There was no “original” stored in a “pattern stream”, so the “pattern stream” can’t be an absolute hard requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/66 "2013-09-24T18:48:11Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Here’s a thought experiment: > > You enter a transporter and you don’t get dematerialized, only scanned. An exact copy of you is then created, standing next to you. > > I then hand you a gun and say “Shoot yourself in the head; your double will take it from here.” > > Would you be all good with that? That copy is you, by your logic. > > I believe that dematerializing the brain would, in fact, kill you, and the new copy of you would simply be a copy. Your friends and loved ones would never know the difference, but your consciousness would permanently cease to exist the moment you dematerialized, never to return. ie: Death. An unrelated copy would spring up somewhere else and live its life as if it were you, but you, personally, would be dead. ## I do believe in a soul, and I think it makes it easier to accept Star-Trek-style teleportation, not harder, because it’s possible that your soul will transfer into your new body. But I’d still never actually step into a transporter, because I’m not _that_ confident my soul will go along for the ride, or that the “me” that steps into the machine will be the same “me” that steps out of it. Kirk steps into a transporter, and suddenly finds himself at the Gates of Heaven. After he realizes where he is, he asks St. Peter what went wrong with the transporter. “Nothing did,” Peter replies. “That happens every time somebody transports. Didn’t you ever realize that the human body isn’t supposed to be converted into energy?” Kirk then turns around, and see hundreds of clones of himself standing around in a huge crowd 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/67 "2013-09-24T18:48:54Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > . . . I’m not saying a transporter _changes_ you. I’m saying it **kills** you, and creates a wholly unrelated copy of you somewhere else. . . . So what? The “totally unrelated” me can’t tell the difference, and neither can anyone else. I’ll ask the question that no one answered in the GD thread: your best friend uses a transporter to go on vacation to the Bahamas. He comes back. Do you say, “Hi, welcome back, how was it?” Or do you say, “Go away. You are dead. I do not talk to dead people. Never come near me again?” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/68 "2013-09-24T18:53:27Z")
**grude** : there isn’t a single answer. The Star Trek transporter is given different properties in different episodes on TV and in different books, too. James Blish, in the first Star Trek novel, said it was like quantum tunneling: the person’s particles are induced to perform a Dirac Jump. The Old Trek episode “Wolf in the Fold” duplicates Kirk…partially. Where did the extra matter come from? In the New Trek episode where Scotty is beamed back from the pattern buffer, where did the matter come from? None of this is ever made clear. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/69 "2013-09-24T18:56:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ll ask the question that no one answered in the GD thread: your best friend uses a transporter to go on vacation to the Bahamas. He comes back. Do you say, “Hi, welcome back, how was it?” Or do you say, “Go away. You are dead. I do not talk to dead people. Never come near me again?” Wow. Why does he/she have to be dead to me? I don’t know what the answer to these deep philosophical questions are, so I’ll pretend nothing changed. “Hi. Have fun? Get laid? Tell me all the nitty gritty.” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/70 "2013-09-24T19:20:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ll ask the question that no one answered in the GD thread: your best friend uses a transporter to go on vacation to the Bahamas. He comes back. Do you say, “Hi, welcome back, how was it?” Or do you say, “Go away. You are dead. I do not talk to dead people. Never come near me again?” Great question! Dead and soulless or not, I guaran-damn-tee “you” will still have to pay the other you’s taxes. And child support. And… ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/71 "2013-09-24T19:25:06Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ah…see, I agree with you about the informational states, but the transporter in my mind is keeping that unbroken, just…moving it. Recreating it, unbroken and unchanged, over _there_, and that’s why it’s still me. My “soul” isn’t attached to these molecules, but that informational relationship, no matter which molecules make it up. > > The next question, of course, is what if the informational relationship here isn’t destroyed? Does my soul pick one? Does it split? Does it replicate? I have no idea. But these are questions to ponder around the bonfire with a good bottle of mead. Read Greg Egan’s short story “Learning to Be Me” for an angle on how such an informational duplication might feel. Then read his novel _Permutation City_ for a different angle (and some other cool ideas). Buy the books if you have to, I’m willing to bet they’ll tingle your brain (if not, PM me and I’ll buy them from you). ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/72 "2013-09-24T19:29:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No problem. They clearly have to transmit all the molecules and reassemble them in the right relative position. Why there would be a setting not to do this is another interesting question. > Equipment on starships must be like Batman’s utility belt - designed to meet the need of future plots. Exactly, the plot needed it to be so. But, the question still remains about the two “people.” The consciousness of the energy being Redjak was tied to the physical body of Hengist. When they beamed out Hengist, set to disperse, it took along and rendered ineffective the energy being (and presumably its consciousness) Redjak. The result was that Redjak was in whatever they beamed out in Hengist’s body. So, the implication to this thread is that the transporter seems to transport the “person” and not just its molecules. IANScotty, ymmv ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/73 "2013-09-24T19:31:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > **grude** : there isn’t a single answer. The Star Trek transporter is given different properties in different episodes on TV and in different books, too. > > James Blish, in the first Star Trek novel, said it was like quantum tunneling: the person’s particles are induced to perform a Dirac Jump. > > The Old Trek episode “Wolf in the Fold” duplicates Kirk…partially. Where did the extra matter come from? In the New Trek episode where Scotty is beamed back from the pattern buffer, where did the matter come from? None of this is ever made clear. “Wolf in the Fold?” I think that is the Jack the Ripper story by Bloch. I suspect you mean the one by Matheson in the first season. When Blish was just starting on his versions he tried hard to make sense out of things. By the end he pretty much gave up. In any case, he knew of “Rogue Moon” by Budrys the classic of this genre. To add another factor, I’m pretty sure that by TNG time they could fiddle with what is in the pattern buffer, for instance removing contaminants. TOS did not have this capability. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/74 "2013-09-24T19:37:01Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Read Greg Egan’s short story “Learning to Be Me” for an angle on how such an informational duplication might feel. Then read his novel _Permutation City_ for a different angle (and some other cool ideas). Buy the books if you have to, I’m willing to bet they’ll tingle your brain (if not, PM me and I’ll buy them from you). There’s another short story that fits. I can’t remember the name, tho. (!!!) It involved a system that could transport duplicates of people thousands of light years. The Dupe would remember all of his life up to the present, where the the Original would still be back on Earth, not knowing anything of the trials or experiences of his duplicated selves. The story followed a Dupe as it re-emerged at each next place. The last Dupe realized he was expendable. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/75 "2013-09-24T19:38:05Z")
Wolf in the Fold is the Redjak/Hengist story. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/76 "2013-09-24T19:47:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok there seem to be some wrong ideas about the transporter here(at least the Trek variety). > > There is an episode of TNG where Riker finds out that due to a malfunction during a transport, the Riker on the planet was not zapped and was essentially left stranded. It seems like rather than converting you to energy and then back to matter on the ship, the transporter is just a giant replicator creating a duplicate you and then zapping the version of you on the planet to tie up loose ends. > > You’re being duplicated and the original killed for essentially no reason(aside from people being existentially uncomfortable with duplicates running around). > > Or am I wrong? Not wrong. We see this kind of transporter malfunction a couple of times throughout Trek (doesn’t it happen to Picard at least once?) It would appear that there’s no inherent reason why the original person must be detroyed. This could actually make a fascinating movie. The crew of the Enterprise finally realizes that there’s no reason why they can’t make a backup copy of themselves, just in case. Before long, this leads to them beaming clones down into all manor of horribly dangerous situations. Because who cares if your clone gets torn limb from limb by the slime monsters, when you get to stay on the ship safe & sound? Fast forward a few years. A clone of Dr. Crusher finally escapes after spending the last two years as the prisoner of a rape gang on some shithole planet. She vows revenge on the crew of the Enterprise which left her at the mercy of a bunch of barbarians. She travels to Risa, where she finds the original Dr. Crusher on shore leave. Clone Crusher vaporizes the original with a phaser (so there won’t be a body), and then beams back to the Enterprise in her place… ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/77 "2013-09-24T19:53:50Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > This could actually make a fascinating movie. The crew of the Enterprise finally realizes that there’s no reason why they can’t make a backup copy of themselves, just in case. Before long, this leads to them beaming clones down into all manor of horribly dangerous situations. Because who cares if your clone gets torn limb from limb by the slime monsters, when you get to stay on the ship safe & sound? That would be the gist of _Rogue Moon_, mentioned upthread. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/78 "2013-09-24T19:55:55Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Clone Crusher vaporizes the original with a phaser (so there won’t be a body), and then beams back to the Enterprise in her place… Leaving her clone of a clone to take the fall for a murder charge? Sounds like a never ending story of betrayal and mayhem! ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/79 "2013-09-24T19:59:57Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Not wrong. We see this kind of transporter malfunction a couple of times throughout Trek (doesn’t it happen to Picard at least once?) It would appear that there’s no inherent reason why the original person must be detroyed. > > This could actually make a fascinating movie. The crew of the Enterprise finally realizes that there’s no reason why they can’t make a backup copy of themselves, just in case. Before long, this leads to them beaming clones down into all manor of horribly dangerous situations. Because who cares if your clone gets torn limb from limb by the slime monsters, when you get to stay on the ship safe & sound? > > Fast forward a few years. A clone of Dr. Crusher finally escapes after spending the last two years as the prisoner of a rape gang on some shithole planet. She vows revenge on the crew of the Enterprise which left her at the mercy of a bunch of barbarians. She travels to Risa, where she finds the original Dr. Crusher on shore leave. Clone Crusher vaporizes the original with a phaser (so there won’t be a body), and then beams back to the Enterprise in her place… That’s the problem. If the clone survives and has gained useful experience and intel and perhaps made themselves eligible for medals, promotions, etc, what good is the lazy original just sitting around on ship? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544/80 "2013-09-24T20:19:36Z")
I am of the opinion that the a Star Trek type teleporter (or any teleporter really) probably DOES kill the original copy, but that it really doesn’t matter either way. I’d use it, even though I’m pretty sure “my” consciousness would end, and another one that believes it is “me” and is identical to “me” in every way starts somewhere else. To the new me, and the universe as a whole, it doesn’t really matter. There are no tests you can perform to determine whether the new me is really me or just a copy. He will believe he is me, and have the memory of transporting and everything, so, yay. So yes, sign me up. And I honestly think that my consciousness will end when they flip the switch, and a new one somewhere else exactly like me will begin. And I am ok with that. For that matter though, to make it clear, I believe that I am constantly being replaced by a copy, possibly every single moment in time the old “me” is dying and a new “me” is taking over in his place. I don’t see the teleporter issue as any different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willing-to-be-teleported-as-in-star-trek-im-not/669544.md?page=5)