# Willow bottoms out (Buffy 11/27 SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 28, 2001, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632 "2001-11-28T02:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/21 "2001-11-28T14:45:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > \*\*It’s worth noting that the “protection” Buffy used against Spike seemed to be just garlic and crosses- the weakest defenses in the Buffyverse. If she was serious about him not getting in to see her, she could have easily gotten one of the witches to do it. Even though Tara’s avoiding Willow, I can’t imagine her saying no to the request. \*\* I think that Buffy might not want to uninvite Spike because of Dawn. I mean…Willow isn’t exactly fit to watch over her anymore, Tara’s gone, Buffy has to patrol, and Xander and Anya wouldn’t be all that much help. Yeah, I know…unlikely :o. But it’s a thought, ---
**Author:** ![theshadowpoet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@theshadowpoet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theshadowpoet)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/22 "2001-11-28T14:48:29Z")
I think the reasoning behind the garlic and the little cross was more Buffy trying to convince herself that she didn’t want Spike to show up. The was she was sitting on her bed, it seemed as if she really wanted him to show up. Maybe that was just me. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/23 "2001-11-28T15:07:25Z")
Okay, after watching Willow get all dark and sexy, and watching Spike and Buffy fuck until they bring down an old building, could I be: a) evil b) kinky c) and kinda gay? 😃 I like The Tim’s explanation of Magic addiction - it’s not a metaphor for drugs, it’s an addiction of its own, addicts share certain behaviors and patterns, why should an addiction to power and freedom be different from any other mind-altering substance? Buffy’s addiction is also a real one - ever know someone who is bad for you on every level but the sex is so good you can’t cut them loose? They hit that secret part of you that you didn’t even know was there. I vote for more Spike and Buffy boffing! I think she’s gonna use him and push him away, use him and push him away, until he does go all evil again. What did Wrack do to Willow? And to Amy? I think we’ll be seeing him again. ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/24 "2001-11-28T15:10:04Z")
Yeah, garlic and a cross to keep Spike out? She knows how to “un-invite” vamps, and she hangs garlic? Uh-huh. -Rue. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/25 "2001-11-28T15:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\* > Umm, hello? Better person? What’s the very first thing he did when he suspected his chip might have been broken? Continue to live a life of semi-virtue to prove his worth to Buffy, in spite of the fact he can hurt her now? Tested it by throwing a rock at somebody else? Punching somebody? Nope. > > He went straight for the throat and tried to kill an innocent person. In the not-many-gray-areas Buffyverse, Spike is a Bad Guy. In spite of the fact that Willow just did more to endanger and hurt Dawn than a great many now-dead-because-of-it demons, she’s still breathing. That’s your gray area. Spike isn’t within ten miles of it. He’s evil and always will be. Like the demon who summoned Holtz said of Angel last week, “He’s got a soul. So did Attilla the Hun. So what?”\*\* Thank you. I was just about to post something along the same lines. And we shouldn’t forget Spike’s willing participation in Dru’s little murder back in “Crush”. Personally, I really liked last night’s show. The metaphor may be a little heavy, but it’s been wearing a pretty thin disguise all along. I’m glad they stopped pussyfooting around and just ran with it. I thought the best part of the show was when Dawn slapped Willow. That was great. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/26 "2001-11-28T15:15:03Z")
Yes, indeedy, Wrack was played by Jeff Kober, who was a baddie on Buffy before as the insane vampire used by the Watchers’ Council to test Buffy’s powers on her 18th birthday. I agree that the Magic=Drugs=Bad message was heavy-handed, but I can tell that Marti Noxon knows drug addict behavior. I know from bitter experience that drug addicts will get weepy, apologize for blowing the rent money/selling your VCR/cheating on you, and promise to give up drugs forever, and then head back to their dealer as soon as they start jonesing for another hit. A drug addict would sell his mother for just one more hit, please baby, just one, then I’ll quit, really. I’m willing to bet that Willow is going to backslide later in the season. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/27 "2001-11-28T15:23:39Z")
Not much to add other than my agreement that the magic=drugs was a little hamfisted - less subtle than I expect from these guys. I foresee a problem with the overt analogy as far as how they will justify the use of “good” magic. I mean, are Tara’s positive efforts “gateway” spells. Also look forward to seeing Willow go deeper. Was interested in Buffy’s conundrum at the end. Could imagine the feeling of wanting to kick Willow out of the house and warn her away from her sister, but OTOH she could not just turn her back on such a long and true friend. Personally, I am not nearly as interested in the Spike/Buffy romance. More interested in finding out exactly what she is now. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/28 "2001-11-28T15:34:25Z")
Mmmmm… Spike… sure, he’s evil, but he’s also got those little spots of caring and sweetness combined with the evil. It’s the ultimite sexy combination. For all the reasons I used to have a crush on Jareth from _Labyrinth_, I now have one on Spike. Mmmmm. There must be more action between Buffy and Spike. The bad stuff that he has done lately has seemed to be more out of rebellion than a true desire to do harm. He has a lot of anger towards Buffy, mixed with his love, and even his participation in the murder Dru committed was to try to excape his feelings for Buffy, to prove to himself that he’s still the Big Bad. But I don’t believe that he truly is, any more. Spike’s line about getting a LoJack for Dawn was excellent. While I like that Dawn is finally starting to fight back in dangerous situations, was it just me, or was the demon Willow summoned a complete wimp? Dawn was able to knock him down with one well-placed kick, giving her and Willow enought time to run away. He kept losing his balance and was generally less manacing once he’d arrived than he’d been when he was still in Willow’s visions. I’m curious about the body he seemed to be carrying around in the visions, too. Who was she? And what happened to her when the demon came into reality? Dawn’s slap was truly great, as was the “like a meat party in my mouth”. Willow’s breakdown at that point was a bit overwrought, though, and on the whole, I didn’t think this was such a strong episode to finish out the Sweeps. Can’t wait for January. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/29 "2001-11-28T16:32:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > \*\*It’s worth noting that the “protection” Buffy used against Spike seemed to be just garlic and crosses- the weakest defenses in the Buffyverse. If she was serious about him not getting in to see her, she could have easily gotten one of the witches to do it. Even though Tara’s avoiding Willow, I can’t imagine her saying no to the request. \*\* Yes and no. If Buffy, as the owner of the house, no longer has a soul, _any_ vampire can just walk in. We’ve seen this before, Spike could just walk in to the apartment of the non-human played by Joel Grey last season. Should be interesting to see if they do anything with that soon. IMHO, one of the reasons Buffy will continute to trust Spike is because he seems fond of Dawn. Even last night, she let Spike take Dawn to the hospital (or at least lead her away) while Buffy dealt with Willow. Was anybody else expecting “Rack” to be antlered? Do you think he’s a powerful human or a demon? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/30 "2001-11-28T16:51:38Z")
Question. If Willow can pop the soul back into a vampire (Angel), why couldn’t she do it for Spike? If I were Spike and had a crush on a Slayer who once had a crush on a vampire with a soul (follow me here), I’d be getting in line. At best, last night’s episode was a bit rushed – one hit and Willow is hopelessly Lost Weekend addicted to Wrack’s spell casting? Yes, I understand they want to parallel the Buffy-Spike addiction and the Willow-Magic addiction, but this was too abrupt. And Amy rummaging the house for kitchen spices was just – stupid. Again, I understand them trying to draw a parallel with the desperation a junkie feels, but guys? Sage isn’t illegal. They didn’t even claim it was organically grown, specially blessed sage. If Wrack needs herbs to do that voodoo he does so well, all they have to do is go down to the local CostCo and buy a five pound container of the stuff for a few dollars. Not only was it a pretty weak episode, but this is the first season of Buffy where there doesn’t seem to be any real focus. No Adam, no Angelus, no “I just want to be a big snake” Mayor The three nerds don’t make it as Big Bads, if only because they are so incredibly stupid. Let’s face it, if they could build the technology they’ve got (it must be magic-assisted somehow), they’d be too busy being the next Bill Gates to worry about annoying Buffy. Finally, what’s with all the damned special effects light shows when Willow/Wrack et. al. cast magic. The magic is too easy – that’s not how magic has worked in the Buffyverse previously.What is this, Charmed? ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/31 "2001-11-28T17:03:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Finagle \* > **Question. If Willow can pop the soul back into a vampire (Angel), why couldn’t she do it for Spike? If I were Spike and had a crush on a Slayer who once had a crush on a vampire with a soul (follow me here), I’d be getting in line.** I think Spike wants sex. Seeing what happened to Angel…he probably thinks he’d get one good boink, then back to where he started. And, as he has demonstrated, he doesn’t need a soul to do THAT. And as to whether sex with Buffy would actually desoul a souled Spike…who knows? But I bet Spike would perceive it that way. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/32 "2001-11-28T17:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Finagle \* > **Question. If Willow can pop the soul back into a vampire (Angel), why couldn’t she do it for Spike? If I were Spike and had a crush on a Slayer who once had a crush on a vampire with a soul (follow me here), I’d be getting in line.** Willow was posessed when she did the spell. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/33 "2001-11-28T17:22:14Z")
Willow was possessed when she did the Angelus soul return? I don’t think so. She’d just had a bookcase fall on her and she wasn’t at her best, but I don’t remember her being possessed. Not to mention that she seems to be several orders of magnitude more powerful and experienced at magic now, and if you can bring someone back to life, soul transplantation should be a snap. (Granted, given the remorse, misery and anguish that the restored soul feels, I can see why the Vampire would be reluctant, but our Spike is in LUV, so I can seem him going through with it.) BTW, I suspect the “perfect happiness” (== boink with Buffy) is specific to the curse cast on Angelus. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty stupid curse, because once it’s activated, the soul goes away, the vampire no longer gives a damn about perfect happiness, no longer suffers anguish, and gets to go back to maiming and killing which is what the curse was placed on him for in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/34 "2001-11-28T17:31:41Z")
I wonder if saying Buffy came back wrong is jumping to an incorrect conclusion. The first thing I thought when Spike smacked Buffy without pain was that maybe the chip couldn’t prevent someone from hitting someone they love? “You always hurt the one you love” kind of deal. I miss a lot of episodes; had Spike ever smacked Buffy after realizing he loved her, but before she died, and had chip-pain? ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Baroo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/76d3ee/32.png) [@Billy\_Baroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Baroo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/35 "2001-11-28T17:47:55Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Angel of the Lord \* \*\* > [@](#): > > And as to whether sex with Buffy would actually desoul a souled Spike…who knows? But I bet Spike would perceive it that way. \*\* Who knows? Me. I know. Angel loses his soul because of a gypsy curse. He’s a special case. The same thing will not happen to Spike. I remain convinced that Spike is shedding his evilness. He’s a noble vampire, on a path of redemption. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/36 "2001-11-28T18:28:42Z")
It’s interesting that the noble Spike, who was offended that the Scoobies didn’t trust him to help destroy a Buffy who “came back wrong,” is all too happy to exploit her “came back wrongness” when it means he gets a good shag despite her obvious unhappiness with the idea. Ah, love. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/37 "2001-11-28T18:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I wonder if saying Buffy came back wrong is jumping to an incorrect conclusion. The first thing I thought when Spike smacked Buffy without pain was that maybe the chip couldn’t prevent someone from hitting someone they love? “You always hurt the one you love” kind of deal. > > I miss a lot of episodes; had Spike ever smacked Buffy after realizing he loved her, but before she died, and had chip-pain? \*\* I think this is an excellent possibility! Because Buffy has to still have her soul, and what else might be “wrong” with her if not that? Again, I’m boring, I don’t care WHAT Spike has done, I think he rocks and Buffy has to just get over herself. Is there anything sweeter than a big bad like Spike being madly in love? I’m dyin’, I’m tellin ya… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/38 "2001-11-28T19:15:49Z")
I haven’t watched Buffy this year - I’ve been keeping up with it by reading what you all have to say… But the thought that “if your boyfriend is violent, but he loves you enough, and you love him enough, he will change” might turn out to be a plot point here is enough to make me gag. I really hope this doesn’t go there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/39 "2001-11-28T20:10:57Z")
I’m sure Buffy still has a soul, she isn’t bitchy-Buffy from when Kathy was doing the soul transference to her. However that doesn’t mean that she’s human enough to set of Spike’s chip. I’m sure Spike coudl wail on Angel with no problem. I doubt the US government managed to develop soul-sensing technology. As for magic being easier it seems like the throwing spells around is possible, but costly (as Willow’s burn out showed). More over the ritual spells were usually more complicated, they involved changes to people’s minds/souls or dealt with a large area (trying to find out info for instance). Willow’s willingnes to just burn power to bypass doing work is a sign that she’s moved from magic as a tool to magic as a way of life. I think that that’s the difference between good uses of magic and bad uses. People who go to Wrack use magic for its own sake and for stupid little things (Willow didn’t even want to get up to close the shades). Tara and her ilk use magic in less trivial circumstances. I think the difference is a healthy respect. Willow has never really admited that magic has any sort of consequences. Spike, Tara, Giles and even Anya are well aware of the fact that magic is pushing reality around and it will push back. As for what Wrack is doing I think he’s hypercharging the people comming to him. He fires them up with power that they can use, but he gives them too much at once and so their consciousness shifts. It seems that during this time they do a whole bunch of spells, which Wrack directs in someways. Wasn’t Amy stealing other things besides just spices? Even so it was late at night and places weren’t open. She wanted the stuff right then and there so she could go to Wrack’s as soon as possible. I agree she should have been stealing something more clearly valuable, either magically or mundanely. One thing I’m hoping for is Dawn’s being the key comming back into play. As Glory said Dawn is somewhat like her, and all the crazies recognised Dawn as something made of energy. I was expecting Wrack to get a taste of Dawn and get excited about the potential. Oh well, maybe in future episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632/40 "2001-11-28T20:27:01Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Billy Baroo \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I remain convinced that Spike is shedding his evilness. He’s a noble vampire, on a path of redemption. \*\* Tell that to the lady in the alley. On why Willow doesn’t curse Spike with a soul, didn’t the gypsy who set the original spell on Angelus have to die by his hand in order for it to take? And Willow just channelled that dead gypsy in order to reactivate it? I doubt Willow’d be up to that level of commitment in order for Spike to get a soul… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-bottoms-out-buffy-11-27-spoilers/95632.md?page=3)