# Willow Rosenberg: charming cutie, irresponsible brat, or dyed-in-the-wool villain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 5, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601 "2011-08-05T15:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/21 "2011-08-05T18:10:49Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I disagree. Willow is a major character in the television show. Anyone whose watched _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ knows who she is, and if you don’t recognize the character and show from just the name, you can’t reasonably have an opinion. > > If someone started a thread on whether, say, the designated hitter rule should be abolished, I wouldn’t say that there should be an option for people like me whose only knowledge of said rule is how to spell it. The fact that I don’t know jack about baseball means would keep me from voting in the poll. From the thread title and OP alone, I didn’t even know it was about a TV show. I thought it might be some person in the news or something. I inferred from the responses that it was a TV show, but your OP _per se_ only presents a name with no explanation or context at all. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/22 "2011-08-05T18:17:11Z")
If you don’t know enough to know who he’s referring to, your opinion is not needed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/23 "2011-08-05T18:24:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > From the thread title and OP alone, I didn’t even know it was about a TV show. I thought it might be some person in the news or something. I inferred from the responses that it was a TV show, but your OP _per se_ only presents a name with no explanation or context at all. I’ll grant that it would have been helpful to include the phrase _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ in the thread title, and if a mod chooses to add such I’ll shrug and eat a cookie. But you originally complained about a lack of a “Who the heck is Willow?” option in the poll. To me that seems pointless, because if a poster doesn’t know who Willow Rosenberg is or what show she appears in, it’s silly for that poster to vote in the poll in the first place. In the Game Room, there’s a thread running about something called gold farming. The poll options are something like “Will you buy virtual goods in Diablo 3 – yes or no?” Now I don’t play computer games; I only know the meaning of “Diablo” as the Spanish for devil; and beyond the literal meanings of the words “virtual” and “goods,” I have no idea what the hell the OP is talking about. But I don’t think the OP needed to include a thread option for me or people like me, because I can’t be expected to have an informed opinion, and I’d be silly to think that I _could_ have such an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/24 "2011-08-05T18:26:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Irresponsible brat. By the end all the attraction was gone. Always seemed so friggin’ calculated on Whedon’s part: “Here’s a geeky, computery chick for all you nerdy guys too intimidated by the hot blonde lead…but wait! There’s more!..She’s a Witch now! But wait!, there’s more!.. she’s a Lesbian now! but Wait! There’s more!..she’s Evil now!” > > Her girlfriend, on the other hand - \*there \*was a cutie. This. +1. I thought Tara (Amber Benson) was the best looking on the show. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/25 "2011-08-05T18:32:15Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Come on Dio, you should know better. I’m not going to respond to the poll, because I haven’t watched enough of the series, but any popular culture entity is going to have a [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Rosenberg) explaining it all in excruciating detail. While it’s not a big deal, I will side with Dio here. This kind of information should be in the OP somewhere. Yes, it’s easy to look this stuff up online but it’s even easier for the OP to include this information. Heck, it’s just good manners. If this were an actual Buffy the Vampire Slayer message board then I would expect everyone to know who Willow is. But it’s a general message board and more information in the OP might be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/26 "2011-08-05T18:32:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > if a poster doesn’t know who Willow Rosenberg is or what show she appears in, it’s silly for that poster to vote in the poll in the first place. > > In the Game Room, there’s a thread running about something called gold farming. The poll options are something like “Will you buy virtual goods in Diablo 3 – yes or no?” Now I don’t play computer games; I only know the meaning of “Diablo” as the Spanish for devil; and beyond the literal meanings of the words “virtual” and “goods,” I have no idea what the hell the OP is talking about. But I don’t think the OP needed to include a thread option for me or people like me, because I can’t be expected to have an informed opinion, and I’d be silly to think that I _could_ have such an opinion. Thing is, people seem to believe not only that they have a god-given right to express their opinion of “I don’t know, and I don’t care”, but that everyone else should assign their ignorance and apathy the proper import. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/27 "2011-08-05T18:34:00Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > This. +1. I thought Tara (Amber Benson) was the best looking on the show. I’m torn. Amber Benson is only okay looking (or was back then; I don’t know what she looks like now), but Tara was intensely hot. It was about her character’s personality, not about her physical appearance. I couldn’t imagine random guys ogling her the way they did in OMWF, but I can easily imagine anyone who spent time talking to her falling in love in the space of an hour. I’m deliberately not commenting on Amber Benson’s personality, by the way. I know nothing of her personality; I’ve never met her or even seen an interview. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/28 "2011-08-05T18:36:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m torn. Amber Benson is only okay looking (or was back then; I don’t know what she looks like now), but Tara was intensely hot. It was about her character’s personality, not about her physical appearance. I couldn’t imagine random guys ogling her the way they did in OMWF, but I can easily imagine anyone who spent time talking to her falling in love in the space of an hour. > > I’m deliberately not commenting on Amber Benson’s personality, by the way. I know nothing of her personality; I’ve never met her or even seen an interview. I suppose that I should also clarify that it was Tara, not Amber Benson, that I thought was hot. I don’t know much about AB and haven’t followed her or looked up anything else she has done. I think the latest IMDB picture of her looks like she lost weight and I didn’t think she looked good. Tara, however. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/29 "2011-08-05T18:45:13Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > I suppose that I should also clarify that it was Tara, not Amber Benson, that I thought was hot. I don’t know much about AB and haven’t followed her or looked up anything else she has done. I think the latest IMDB picture of her looks like she lost weight and I didn’t think she looked good. > > Tara, however. :eek: Oh, we’re not disagreeing. What I mean is that Tara was hot not because of how she looked, but because of the way she behaved. In other words I don’t think her hotness was something that would hit you right away, as with, say Glory. It was something that, once you knew her, you’d find it impossible to forget and difficult to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/30 "2011-08-05T18:58:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, we’re not disagreeing. What I mean is that Tara was hot not because of how she looked, but because of the way she behaved. In other words I don’t think her hotness was something that would hit you right away, as with, say Glory. It was something that, once you knew her, you’d find it impossible to forget and difficult to ignore. So, you liked her better than Kennedy? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/31 "2011-08-05T19:02:50Z")
_Clem_ is better than Kennedy. I vote “All of the Above.” Vessel of enormous power that lacked training and discipline. Capable of great evil (small e) when under duress. Has gotten better about it. If she had been truly Evil Xander never would have been able to talk her out of destroying the world. Notice that Buffy never tried talking Angelus out of activating Acathla. She knew it would be a waste of breath. ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/32 "2011-08-05T19:06:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If someone started a thread on whether, say, the designated hitter rule should be abolished, I wouldn’t say that there should be an option for people like me whose only knowledge of said rule is how to spell it. The fact that I don’t know jack about baseball means would keep me from voting in the poll. No such poll is necessary. Anyone who knows a thing about the designated hitter rule knows the answer is “Fuck yes it should be abolished - the DH ruins the purity and integrity of the game and is an abomination to every man, woman, child and beast.” 😃 Also, the answer to the OP’s question is “all of the above.” Willow Rosenberg was the first and perhaps still greatest of my TV crushes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/33 "2011-08-05T19:11:33Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > So, you liked her better than Kennedy? Damn it, now I have to neuralize myself again. You’re going to make me give myself brain cancer. The usual threats. > [@silenus](#): > > _Clem_ is better than Kennedy. By that point Willow and Kennedy deserved one another. And I mean that in the most insulting sense possible. Pretend I used a lot of _fuck_s in that answer. > [@](#): > > I vote “All of the Above.” Vessel of enormous power that lacked training and discipline. Capable of great evil (small e) when under duress. Has gotten better about it. If she had been truly Evil Xander never would have been able to talk her out of destroying the world. Notice that Buffy never tried talking Angelus out of activating Acathla. She knew it would be a waste of breath. On balance I should have voted “Evil from season 2 onwards, but in denial about it.” Recall that her response to facing temptation to cheat on her boyfriend is to try to use magic to remove Xander’s free will. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/34 "2011-08-05T19:38:54Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If you don’t know enough to know who he’s referring to, your opinion is not needed in this thread. QFT. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/35 "2011-08-05T19:56:13Z")
For the Tara-lovers out there, AB has gone on to become a fairly decent paranormal romance writer, and there is a youtube video floating around of her and Patrick Rothfuss at a convention somewhere doing a readers-theatre type reading of one of her sex scenes. Possibly one of the most hysterical things I have seen recently. Once I am no longer at work, I will go dig up the link to post, but it can’t be that hard to find if anyone can’t wait that long. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/36 "2011-08-05T20:18:48Z")
Not inherently evil, but selfish ( and irresponsible ). Obviously so after the first season or two. It was camouflaged early on by her own insecurities and a strong desire to be liked. But as she increasingly became more confidant in herself and her ever-increasing abilities ( which I also regarded as a minor mistake plot-wise ), she became more open about showing the nastier side of her personality. Which objectively I find a pretty decent character arc, actually - people do sometimes change drastically from their teenage personalities. But in this case I just think it ended up being fumbled a bit. The evil doppelganger was an example of _good_ plotting, sadly the whole “addiction” route they went down pissed all over that excellent set-up. IMHO :). ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/37 "2011-08-05T22:17:19Z")
A & B. SO used to being powerless that when she becomes powerful it goes to her head. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/38 "2011-08-05T22:25:24Z")
I quit this show midway through season 6 so I’m going with “irresponsible cutie”. ---
**Author:** ![\_mostly\_Harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_mostly\_Harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_mostly_Harmless)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/39 "2011-08-05T22:29:56Z")
I would like to say that I agree with everything **Skald** has said so far. This is disconcerting to me as I don’t normally agree with _everything_ someone says. I suspect foul play and/or magiks are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601/40 "2011-08-05T22:34:07Z")
> [@\_mostly\_Harmless](#): > > I would like to say that I agree with everything **Skald** has said so far. This is disconcerting to me as I don’t normally agree with _everything_ someone says. > > I suspect foul play and/or magiks are involved. I have checked the cameras in your bedroom and bath, the spyware I installed on your computer, and the nanobot surveillance devices in your spine and corpus callosum, and there is nothing to indicate that you are under any unusual compulsion or geas. If you like I will have the Ensorcelling Group check your dream logs, but they are busy with the Bachmann project so I won’t get answer till morning. What? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/willow-rosenberg-charming-cutie-irresponsible-brat-or-dyed-in-the-wool-villain/591601.md?page=3)