# Winchester = Out of ammunition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552 "2011-03-22T02:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/1 "2011-03-22T02:25:29Z")
Where did the usage of the word Winchester to mean Out of Ammunition in military terms come from? Did a quick search but my google-fu is weak and didn’t come up with anything. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/2 "2011-03-22T02:43:29Z")
‘Winchester’, as the code for ‘out of ammunition’, was used in Vietnam. I don’t know if it was used before then, but I’ve read it books about that war. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/3 "2011-03-22T02:54:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Winchester’, as the code for ‘out of ammunition’, was used in Vietnam. I don’t know if it was used before then, but I’ve read it books about that war. I’ve just read ‘Apache Dawn’ by Damien Lewis about British Apache helicopters in Afghanistan and its mentioned several times in that but I’ve come across it before. It does sound like something that has a story behind it but I don’t know what. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/4 "2011-03-22T04:20:26Z")
I wonder if there’s any significance to the pub in **Shaun of the Dead** being called the Winchester? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/5 "2011-03-22T06:01:23Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Where did the usage of the word Winchester to mean Out of Ammunition in military terms come from? Did a quick search but my google-fu is weak and didn’t come up with anything. > > Thanks! Just like feet wet and feet dry, winchester= no ammo came out of vietnam. time to dee dee mau Declan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/6 "2011-03-22T06:06:49Z")
‘Feet wet’ and ‘feet dry’ make sense, since they refer to crossing the coast. Winchester seems more obscure. For that matter, why ‘bingo’ for critical fuel? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/7 "2011-03-22T06:17:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Feet wet’ and ‘feet dry’ make sense, since they refer to crossing the coast. Winchester seems more obscure. For that matter, why ‘bingo’ for critical fuel? The only thing that I could think of off hand was how fast a winchester/henry repeating rifle would burn through ammo, compared to a bolt action or single shot rifle. Bingo, I never really looked into its origin, in terms of flight, but just a wag I would put it at world war two, even Vietnam had inflight refueling and divert bases enough that time on station would be fluid. Declan ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/8 "2011-03-22T17:27:44Z")
Aren’t most military codes chosen because they are easy to understand on radio? If you look at the [nato phonetic alphabet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet), you’ll see that none of the words rhyme. Winchester sounds to me like a word that is unlikely to be confused with another often used word when heard over radio. The fact that Winchester is a rifle just makes it easy to remember. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/9 "2011-03-22T17:39:56Z")
Is there any chance that “Winchester” simply meant ammunition at one time, and the usage shifted? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/10 "2011-03-22T22:59:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Feet wet’ and ‘feet dry’ make sense, since they refer to crossing the coast. Winchester seems more obscure. For that matter, why ‘bingo’ for critical fuel? _Bingo_ was used in the US Air Force as early as 1956 to indicate an empty fuel tank. Definitely used so it was clear on a radio transmission. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/11 "2011-03-22T23:07:10Z")
Someone at [this](http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3701066962/xsl/print_topic) site claims: > [@](#): > > “Winchester” came from the main supplier of ammo and rifles to the US Army since the 1890’s and when troopers were out of ammo in battle the call was “Winchester!” if you need more from the supply runners on the line. As opposed to if you were still using an older rifle like a 45-70. I almost posted it last night except that one person saying it on the internet seems iffy. But since no one else has any ideas… discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/12 "2011-03-23T00:17:48Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Someone at [this](http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3701066962/xsl/print_topic) site claims: > > I almost posted it last night except that one person saying it on the internet seems iffy. But since no one else has any ideas… discuss. 19th Century American military equipment isn’t nearly as much my strong suit as 19th Century British military equipment, but I’ve never, ever heard of US soldiers calling “Winchester!” for more ammunition in that time period; in much the same way British soldiers at Isandhlwana or Khartoum were _not_ calling out “Kynoch!” or “Eley!” when they ran out of Martini-Henry ammunition. (What they were no doubt actually calling out almost certainly isn’t suitable for publication anywhere delicate persons might read it, but that’s another thread entirely. ;)) It’s been my understanding that the term “Winchester” for “Out of ammunition” is related to the Winchester Repeating Rifle’s high rate of fire (ads at the time said they’d do two shots a second, meaning you could, in theory, empty the round in the chamber and the seven rounds in the tube in four seconds), but FWIW, I’ve seen no “historic” use of the term until _after_ WWII. I can only guess that the popularity of cinema Westerns in the '50s and '60s had something to do with the association of “Winchester rifle=fast-firing=Out of ammo quickly=No ammo”, but I’ve got absolutely nothing to back that up besides the fact it’s about as plausible as anything else anyone’s likely to come up with. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/13 "2011-03-23T01:20:21Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > _Bingo_ was used in the US Air Force as early as 1956 to indicate an empty fuel tank. Definitely used so it was clear on a radio transmission. Has its meaning changed then from the original **samclem**? Doesn’t _bingo fuel_ (now) mean just enough fuel to get “home”? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/14 "2011-03-23T01:59:22Z")
It’s a heck of a lot better then broadcasting “Hey we are now out of ammo! (come and attack us now)” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/15 "2011-03-23T03:55:49Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Has its meaning changed then from the original **samclem**? Doesn’t _bingo fuel_ (now) mean just enough fuel to get “home”? I actually found a cite from 1961 saying just that. So, you’re correct. My main point was that it was invented so there was no misunderstood word over a radio. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/16 "2011-03-23T04:09:12Z")
I’m thinking that it originated with some fuel gauge that had five lights or indicators; once they were all filled, you had a 'Bingo". ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/17 "2011-03-23T10:51:44Z")
According to the eminent 1998 Microprose Flight Sim [European Air War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Air_War), British pilots would pronounce “I’m Winchester” whenever they ran out of ammo during the Battle of Britain, I recall. However, if this is based on accurate research on the part of the developers of EAW or simply using a modern term in a WWII setting, I do not know. BTW - Weren’t Winchester a major manufacturer of the .303 cal Browning machine gun ammo pre/during WWII? This was the weapon of choice for all British fighters early in the war - could the term have originated because of that? ETA - maybe not: ““Modified” Radio Speech Packs from Cord’s EAW Page These eliminate some of the more annoying radio messages and particularly gets rid of the historically inaccurate British message of “I’m Winchester” (which we believe is a modern jet pilot term which was not used in World War II, and certainly not in the RAF!)” from [this site](http://www.combatsim.com/products/eaw/eaw-addons.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winchester-out-of-ammunition/575552/18 "2011-03-24T08:04:39Z")
> [@abel29a](#): > > BTW - Weren’t Winchester a major manufacturer of the .303 cal Browning machine gun ammo pre/during WWII? This was the weapon of choice for all British fighters early in the war - could the term have originated because of that? The .303 Mk VII and Mk VIII service cartridges used in .303 machine guns during WWII were manufactured by a number of facilities, but generally they were manufactured (in the UK) by ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries), Kynoch, Eley, and various Government facilities including Radway Green and Woolwich Arsenal. The major British colonies (India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand) all had their own cartridge manufacturing facilities as well. Winchester did supply cartridges for a number of years in the middle of WWII (1940-1943 or so) but generally the ammunition used in Commonwealth firearms was manufactured in the UK or one of the major Dominions/Colonies; at least to the best of my knowledge.