# Wind power advocates...how now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369 "2009-07-08T21:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/41 "2009-07-12T13:26:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > It is too bad that windfarms kill birds. However, oil wells kill people, so which is worse? > > Apparently windmills are too different from trees for birds to notice and avoid. Perhaps if the windmills became truly huge, they might rotate slowly enough that birds could control where the fuck they’re flying. Squirels, possums, and armadillos have yet to figure out roads and its been nearly a hundred years, so I wouldnt count on it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/42 "2009-07-12T15:42:46Z")
Yeah, no technology is wholly without environmental impact. But wind power has a lot less environmental impact than most other generation technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/43 "2009-07-12T16:23:39Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Squirels, possums, and armadillos have yet to figure out roads and its been nearly a hundred years, so I wouldnt count on it. I can’t remember the name of it right now, but there is an organization which collects money to build tunnels underneath existing roads for wildlife to use. I don’t think it is a bad cause, though I bet it is just loaded with enviro-weenies. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is something that can be done with windmill design to get birds’ attention. If we can avoid killing things, I think that’s nice. re: oil killing people- I’m thinking along the lines of our killing about 1 in 25 people in Iraq, just to make things ‘stable’. We’re there for the oil, right? I don’t want to hijack the thread mind you, but I consider it quite predictable that we’ll see more of that if we don’t wean ourselves off of oil one way or another. re: TNSSAAFL- I don’t have a link now, but have you seen the bra that’s wired to generate a current from bouncing breasts? You (well, maybe not you or me) can recharge your cell phone just by walking. Talk about making every kilowatt count!!! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/44 "2009-07-12T17:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t remember the name of it right now, but there is an organization which collects money to build tunnels underneath existing roads for wildlife to use. I don’t think it is a bad cause, though I bet it is just loaded with enviro-weenies. Probably not going to do any good. Animals have instincts developed by millions of years of evolution and they haven’t had enough time to adapt to human artifacts. A deer sees a highway and thinks of it as being a clearing in the woods - a safe place because it can see predators at a distance and has easy routes of escape. The same thing would happen with a tunnel under a road - animals are going to instinctively avoid the “dangerous” cave and stay on the “safe” clearing. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/45 "2009-07-13T05:31:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Probably not going to do any good. Animals have instincts developed by millions of years of evolution and they haven’t had enough time to adapt to human artifacts. A deer sees a highway and thinks of it as being a clearing in the woods - a safe place because it can see predators at a distance and has easy routes of escape. The same thing would happen with a tunnel under a road - animals are going to instinctively avoid the “dangerous” cave and stay on the “safe” clearing. You’re probably right, but it doesn’t stop these guys from digging their tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/46 "2009-07-13T17:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Probably not going to do any good. Animals have instincts developed by millions of years of evolution and they haven’t had enough time to adapt to human artifacts. Doesn’t mean we can’t make our technologies safer for animals; it just means that we have to be a little more clever about it. Maybe we can attach whistles to the windmills, for instance, that sound like something the birds have already evolved to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/47 "2009-07-13T18:30:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are hundreds of studies on Google scholar that show that wind turbines kill birds, esp raptors. Now it’s true that other structures also kill birds, but wind turbines are often placed in areas that bird migrate thru or hunt in. So, death by wind turbine or death by smog. Decisions, decisions… ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/48 "2009-07-14T05:51:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Doesn’t mean we can’t make our technologies safer for animals; it just means that we have to be a little more clever about it. Maybe we can attach whistles to the windmills, for instance, that sound like something the birds have already evolved to fear. Drench the windmill blades in cat piss. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/49 "2009-07-14T15:35:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Doesn’t mean we can’t make our technologies safer for animals; it just means that we have to be a little more clever about it. Maybe we can attach whistles to the windmills, for instance, that sound like something the birds have already evolved to fear. It is being looked at, actually. Not sure at what stage of development is in, but iti sdefeinitely something that has been considered. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/50 "2009-07-14T15:43:31Z")
Wonder how much it would cost to retrofit something like that on all of the existing wind turbines? I also wonder how practical the current design is from a cost perspective. Whenever I drive in Southern New Mexico near the Texas border I drive by a pretty large wind farm (not sure what it is but there seem to be a lot of the things), and, generally, some percentage of them are not in motion whenever I drive by. Presumably these are down for maintenance. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/51 "2009-07-14T16:13:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Right now, wind power is being built in the best locations on the planet. There’s a very limited supply of them, especially in the regions where wind power has grown the fastest (Europe). Denmark covers about 15-20% if its energy by wind power. Perhaps Denmark is a special case, but there is no discussion of any physical limit to windmill placement. They can go up just about anywhere. The only limiting factor is that neighbours will have to be compensated. Which is one of the reasons there are some large offshore projects being developed. We have hardly started to tap the potential for offshore projects in Europe. Let alone the rest of the world. Onshore, much of what is happening in Denmark now, is pulling down older windmills and replacing them with newer ones. Of which you only need a fraction to get the same output. Even if the space is limited, technology will ensure a continuing increase in output. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Also, solar is nowhere near as close to its theoretical maximum efficiency as is wind. There is still the possibility of some big improvements in solar technology, whereas at this point wind is becoming fairly mature and we’re talking about shaving a few percentage points here and there with more efficient motors and controllers and such. But we’re not going to find a way to get, say, a 5-fold increase in output from the same area. The CEO of Vestas (which btw. is investing heavily in the USA these years) was on the radio the other day. He commented that windmills actually have one of the highest technology break-ins of all forms of alternative energy. Meaning it was very hard to make an effective and competitive windmill. But once you had that down, there was big room for improvement. We have just broken in. Windmill companies may be mature but windmill technology is still in its infancy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/52 "2009-07-14T16:24:20Z")
I could be wrong here (I’ll look it up later, time permitting), but I think the US actually has the largest number of wind turbines of any country in the world. I say this (assuming I’m correct) because there seems to be a perception that the US is behind other countries in developing wind power. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/53 "2009-07-14T16:25:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I like to think that realistically wind power could max out at five percent of our current energy needs. Nice, but it’s not going to change the big picture. It can certainly be \*part \*of the big picture, along with increased geothermal, nuclear, solar, hydro … . It would be foolish to think there’s only one answer, especially not in a continent as geologically diverse as North America. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/54 "2009-07-14T16:35:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I could be wrong here (I’ll look it up later, time permitting), but I think the US actually has the largest number of wind turbines of any country in the world. I say this (assuming I’m correct) because there seems to be a perception that the US is behind other countries in developing wind power. That’s a rather meaningless yardstick. Of course the USA has more windmills than Luxembourg. You need to measure it against something, like population size or GNP or the total energy production. And yes the USA is behind. Hopefully you will catch up. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/55 "2009-07-14T16:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Of course the USA has more windmills than Luxembourg. [/QUOTE] I didn’t realize that Luxembourg was the only other country with wind power! I’m glad you pointed that out. 😛 > [@](#): > > And yes the USA is behind. Hopefully you will catch up. Um…yeah. Hopefully we’ll catch up and have even MORE wind mills than every other country on earth! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/56 "2009-07-14T16:58:01Z")
Not that it means that much but Denmark generates 19.1% of its electricity from wind-power. Spain and Portugal around 11%. Germany and Ireland around 7%. The USA is pretty far down the list at 1.3%. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/57 "2009-07-14T17:03:51Z")
I was just poking at you…I understand your point. Of course, the percentages also are fairly meaningless, since you are probably talking about substantially less power needed than in the US…so, our 1.3% would probably be a much higher percentage in some of the other countries you listed. I think there is still a lot of low hanging fruit available in the US for wind power that hasn’t been tapped yet. And I certainly think that wind is going to be part of the over all mix of technologies. I just don’t see it ever getting to be more than 5-10% of the total for US energy needs. Add 5-10 percent from solar and maybe as much again for geo-thermal and hydro, and you are still looking at something like a 60% gap…and the only thing I see filling that gap is nuclear at this point. I just don’t see how anything else comes even close. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/58 "2009-07-14T20:28:47Z")
Probably the best comparison would be from one power grid to another. Denmark may be getting 19% of their power from windmills, but I imagine that they also buy and sell power from their neighbors, which helps with load balancing. How many power grids are there in Europe, and what proportion does each of those grids get from wind? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/59 "2009-07-15T14:47:32Z")
Wind power may have more potential than people on this thread are crediting it with. This is from page 30 of a [carbon free nuclear free energy plan](http://www.ieer.org/carbonfree/CarbonFreeNuclearFree.pdf) (pdf): > [@](#): > > It is clear that overall potential is vast – over two-and-a-half times total U.S. > electricity generation in the United States in 2005. The wind energy potential > in each one of the top six states – North Dakota, Texas, Kansas, South Dakota, > Montana, Nebraska – is greater than the total nuclear electricity generation from > all 103 operating U.S. nuclear power plants. The wind energy resource is quite > sufficient to supply the entire electricity requirement of the country for some > time to come under any scenario, if total potential were the only consideration. How much of that potential can be put to use is still up for debate, but wind power does seem to be a trump card that America has yet to play. The study also notes that nuclear’s share of total power generated is predicted to shrink in the coming decades. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369/60 "2009-07-15T15:05:59Z")
There is even more potential in sun light…I remember seeing a similar cite before about how the total amount of sun energy that hits the US in a day could power the entire US for several years, blah blah blah. The problem with this kind of thing is turning that potential into reality. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] How much of that potential can be put to use is still up for debate, but wind power does seem to be a trump card that America has yet to play. [/QUOTE] Sure, there is still some slack in the system, still some untapped potential. But anyone who is saying that we’ll get more than 5-20% (max) of our energy needs from wind is delusional. Yeah, the POTENTIAL is there…but after you tap the really good places it becomes a game of diminishing returns, at least with the current technology. Also, it would take decades to ramp up to even the 5-20% mark…and hundred of billions of dollars. > [@](#): > > The study also notes that nuclear’s share of total power generated is predicted to shrink in the coming decades. Certainly…the prediction is probably based on the fact that we haven’t built a new nuclear power plant in decades in the US, and afaik there are no current plans in the pipeline to build a new one here. Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy, ehe? -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-power-advocates-how-now/502369.md?page=4)