# Wind Turbine vs. Protected Eagles -- Who to root for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427 "2013-03-31T14:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/1 "2013-03-31T14:27:40Z")
[The LA Times](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/16/local/la-me-eagles-20120216) reports: > [@](#): > > The agency has determined that the six golden eagles found dead earlier at the 2-year-old wind farm in Kern County were struck by blades from some of the 90 turbines spread across 8,000 acres at the site. > > Those deaths give Pine Tree one of the highest avian mortality rates in California’s wind farm industry. The death rate per turbine at the $425-million facility is three times higher than at California’s Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area, where about 67 golden eagles die each year. However, the Altamont Pass facility has 5,000 wind turbines — 55 times as many as Pine Tree. > . > . > . > . > Critics say the problem is fundamental. “The increasing golden eagle mortality at Pine Tree clearly points to wind turbines built in the wrong location,” said Ileene Anderson, a biologist with the Center for Biological Diversity. The utility needs to redesign its 250-megawatt Pine Tree network and Kern County needs to put a moratorium on construction of nearby wind farms to prevent deaths, Anderson said. > . > . > . > Killing golden eagles is illegal under federal law, but so far, federal authorities have not prosecuted any wind farm operators for violations. There is actually a federal permit for this: [http://www.fws.gov/midwest/MidwestBird/EaglePermits/baeatakepermit.html](http://www.fws.gov/midwest/MidwestBird/EaglePermits/baeatakepermit.html) > [@](#): > > A permit can be issued for taking eagles when the take is associated with, but not the purpose of, an activity and cannot practicably be avoided. We refer to this type of take as “non-purposeful take.” Authorization is subject to conditions to minimize impacts. The regulation authorizing non-purposeful take permits for bald and golden eagles can be found in the Code of the Federal Register 50 CFR 22.26. Apparently getting such a permit is expensive – in that the permit requires “minimizing impacts” which in turn mandate expensive countermeasures. Certainly we should all be supporting wind power as an oil alternative, and certainly we should all be concerned at the deaths of federally-protected species of animal life. But when those two goals are at odds with each other, what should we do? ---
**Author:** ![purpler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cab0a1/32.png) [@purpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purpler)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/2 "2013-03-31T14:52:55Z")
It’s pretty simple: modernize the wind turbines to reduce kills. Newer turbines with slower blade speed have significantly reduced raptor mortality. Gradually phasing out older turbines is the answer. No need to “root for” one or the other. There’s no “gotcha” here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/3 "2013-04-01T00:39:58Z")
> [@purpler](#): > > It’s pretty simple: modernize the wind turbines to reduce kills. Newer turbines with slower blade speed have significantly reduced raptor mortality. Gradually phasing out older turbines is the answer. No need to “root for” one or the other. There’s no “gotcha” here. It’s not clear to me, then, why the wind farm folks have not applied for take permits. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/4 "2013-04-01T00:43:32Z")
Eagles are smart enough to learn to avoid windmill blades, and any other method of producing the equivalent power has far greater environmental impact, anyway. It’s unfortunate that this will cause the deaths of a few eagles, but that’s life. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/5 "2013-04-01T01:07:50Z")
I believe the bird deaths in the huge off-shore wind farms in Germany decreased greatly after 1 year and again the second year. Birds seem to adapt. If the species was endangered that might not be enough but the good news it that [Golden Eagles are listed as “least concern”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Eagle) on the [Conservation status.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status) Their range is quite huge. If it was a [California Condor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Condor) I would be far more alarmed and recommend the immediate shut down of the windmills. What is odd though is I know I read the Altamont Pass windfarm did not see a descrease in the bird deaths from windmills. So there does seem to be some variance by type of bird. Well Googling around a little I found an excellent summary of bird death causes, [http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm](http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm) It even specifically mentions the older Altamont Pass Windfarm I recall reading about (my bolding below) > [@](#): > > Collisions with wind turbines account for about one-tenth of a percent of all “unnatural” bird deaths in the United States each year. And of all bird deaths, 30 percent are due to natural causes, like baby birds falling from nests [source: AWEA]. So why the widespread misconception that labels wind turbines “bird-o-matics”? It all starts with California, raptors and the thousands of old turbines that make up the **Altamont Pass wind farm**. The info on the German windfarms was in a Scientific America and thus I cannot site it. Sorry about that and feel free to not take it as a cite. But if you feel like it you can try Googling about it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/6 "2013-04-01T02:36:02Z")
I live in Antioch, CA. It has about a thousand large wind turbines. It also has at least 6 mated pairs of Golden Eagles. Watching the various raptors and crows ride the votecies of the turbines is really an amazing sight. They seem to be teasing each other. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/7 "2013-04-01T04:47:56Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I live in Antioch, CA. It has about a thousand large wind turbines. It also has at least 6 mated pairs of Golden Eagles. Watching the various raptors and crows ride the votecies of the turbines is really an amazing sight. They seem to be teasing each other. Ah, so the eagles are getting killed playing “chicken”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/8 "2013-04-01T05:05:11Z")
They appear to be thriving, not getting killed. We have at least six pair in the area. That is a lot. The GEs are huge. I haven’t seen an eagle playing chicken with the crows and the turbines, but I have seen hawks doing it, and they very much appear to be playing, as they do it for 5 to 10 minutes or more hovering in the same general area being pushed about by the currents. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/9 "2013-04-01T05:14:00Z")
How much wildlife gets killed by fossil fuel electricity generation? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/10 "2013-04-01T05:34:16Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > How much wildlife gets killed by fossil fuel electricity generation? Gawd, [don’t get me started](http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/3000-birds-now-killed-or-covered-by-oil-in-the-gulf.html). Anyway, a sideways answer to the OP would be to root for [solar power](http://luoxingqiang.blogspot.com/2013/03/panasonic-r-d-crystalline-silicon-solar.html): > [@](#): > > Panasonic developed area of ​​more than 100cm2 practical level of crystalline silicon solar cell unit to achieve a 24.7% of the world’s highest cell conversion efficiency, 0.5 percentage points higher than the Sun Power Corporation in the United States in 2010 reached 24.2%. The crystalline silicon solar battery cell has a theoretical efficiency of 29% Solar power [keeps getting more effective, and also cheaper](http://www.economist.com/news/21566414-alternative-energy-will-no-longer-be-alternative-sunny-uplands): > [@](#): > > the modules used to make solar-power plants now cost less than a dollar per watt of capacity. The article has a great chart to look at and I’m really making a long story short with a quick quote. But long-term, we might not need wind if we can distribute solar power effectively i.e. if it is worth doing to save the raptors in less sunny places. Don’t like that approach? Then root for wind to replace natural gas since [gas drillers are basically criminals](http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/0713/Thanks-to-North-Dakota-US-waste-of-natural-gas-grows-rapidly) if you compare their behavior to what is demanded by the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and the very plainest common sense. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/11 "2013-04-01T06:52:19Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I believe the bird deaths in the huge off-shore wind farms in Germany decreased greatly after 1 year and again the second year. Birds seem to adapt. If the species was endangered that might not be enough but the good news it that [Golden Eagles are listed as “least concern”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Eagle) on the [Conservation status.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status) Their range is quite huge. If it was a [California Condor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Condor) I would be far more alarmed and recommend the immediate shut down of the windmills. > > What is odd though is I know I read the Altamont Pass windfarm did not see a descrease in the bird deaths from windmills. So there does seem to be some variance by type of bird. > > Well Googling around a little I found an excellent summary of bird death causes, [http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm](http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm) > > It even specifically mentions the older Altamont Pass Windfarm I recall reading about (my bolding below) > The info on the German windfarms was in a Scientific America and thus I cannot site it. Sorry about that and feel free to not take it as a cite. But if you feel like it you can try Googling about it. I don’t know if I would call that an ‘excellent summary’. :dubious: But I will give it credit, that it _ **does** _ give a _general_ idea of the different causes of bird mortality, due to mankind. (Some of the numbers, sound exceedingly high.) With that said, IMHO it’s just one of those things that are bound to happen, with the introduction of machinery into the ‘natural’ world. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/12 "2013-04-01T09:00:20Z")
Eagles can spot small animals at great distances. Wind turbines are massive structures that generate a great deal of noise. If Eagles are hitting them it’s not because they can’t see and avoid them. The idea that a power company should pay some kind of bio-blood money is pointless regulatory bullshit. It literally serves no purpose. And solar cells are still too expensive compared to other sources of power. The only thing that makes sense at this time is solar thermal and that’s where production money should go. We have a tremendous amount of desert space out west that can be utilized economically for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/13 "2013-04-01T09:16:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Eagles can spot small animals at great distances. Wind turbines are massive structures that generate a great deal of noise. If Eagles are hitting them it’s not because they can’t see and avoid them. The idea that a power company should pay some kind of bio-blood money is pointless regulatory bullshit. It literally serves no purpose. > > And solar cells are still too expensive compared to other sources of power. The only thing that makes sense at this time is solar thermal and that’s where production money should go. We have a tremendous amount of desert space out west that can be utilized economically for this purpose. Agreed! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/14 "2013-04-01T12:34:20Z")
Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any energy policy more sophisticated than “Drill, Baby, Drill” or “You liberals are so stuupid about nukes” ? Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any concern about endangered species? > [@Bricker](#): > > Certainly we should all be supporting wind power as an oil alternative, and certainly we should all be concerned at the deaths of federally-protected species of animal life. But when those two goals are at odds with each other, what should we do? I call bullshit. Tradeoffs occur over and over everyday. There’s nothing special about this one, involving two issues you don’t care about, except that Bricker thought progressive thinkers are as small-brained as his idols, and this “paradox” would make their heads explode. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/15 "2013-04-01T14:07:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The only thing that makes sense at this time is solar thermal Not that I doubt you, but do you have any estimates on the cost trends of thermal solar? ps: What did the eagle say when it got hit by the wind turbine blade? Peep! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/16 "2013-04-01T14:16:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any energy policy more sophisticated than “Drill, Baby, Drill” or “You liberals are so stuupid about nukes” ? > Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any concern about endangered species? I’ve never understood the right wing’s taking joy in the problems with the environmental movement. The failure of alternative energy companies, the anti-electric/hybrid cars hysteria, the use of fossil fuels by environmentalists, anti-recycling, or clean energy having any kind of negative effect brings out the animosity in the right wing like little else. I can understand a bit of smugness while looking at the tie dyed, longhaired hippy types who, for all their good intentions, don’t really accomplish much, but I don’t get the glee the right has in celebrating the perceived failures of the environmental movement. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/17 "2013-04-01T14:46:42Z")
the right wing thinks that being conservative is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/18 "2013-04-01T16:29:18Z")
So, again, is there some reason the wind turbine folks should not have to get a take permit? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/19 "2013-04-01T16:45:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve never understood the right wing’s taking joy in the problems with the environmental movement. The failure of alternative energy companies, the anti-electric/hybrid cars hysteria, the use of fossil fuels by environmentalists, anti-recycling, or clean energy having any kind of negative effect brings out the animosity in the right wing like little else. I can understand a bit of smugness while looking at the tie dyed, longhaired hippy types who, for all their good intentions, don’t really accomplish much, but I don’t get the glee the right has in celebrating the perceived failures of the environmental movement. There is no celebration of the failures of the environmental movement. We invented the EPA. That isn’t an excuse to spend money poorly. When an alternative energy company is estimated to fail in 6 months if we throw tax money at and we fund it anyway then it’s not a celebration when it fails in 6 months. It’s a huge WTF were the people who did this thinking? If a bank CEO squanders hundreds of millions of dollars they are brought up before congress. When a politician does with public money nobody blinks. There is no celebration when electric cars fail. It was predicted they would fail. Not because a bunch of tie-died hippies built them but because they aren’t a particularly good substitute for the current hybrids. When they are more desirable we will buy them with the same enthusiasm we buy hybrids now. What would make economic sense would be to roll back EPA laws that restrict diesel cars in the United States. We could be driving 65 mpg diesels right now. I just drove a turbo diesel VW that gets 45 mpg around town. Is was frickin awesome. A little car that could tow something and is fun to drive. But back to the Eagles. We built the friggin wind turbines in good faith to save the planet and there is absolutely no way they can exist without affecting some microbe or furry little creature in some manner. too bad. Birds and bugs are whacked every day by cars. that’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/20 "2013-04-01T17:03:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, again, is there some reason the wind turbine folks should not have to get a take permit? Sounds like they’ll have to either get one or come to some similar agreement with the FWS to meet the terms of the Bald and Golden Eagle Act, or end up getting sued/fined out of existence. In any case, the problem seems pretty manageable. The birds aren’t endangered, so a few extra deaths due to turbine collisions don’t seem likely to threaten their longterm viability. Managibility measures in other windfarms have met with success at reducing avian mortality, and such measures will probably be part of whatever deal the windfarm reaches with FWS. I don’t really see anything that makes me think we can’t have sustainable Golden Eagle populations and windfarms. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427.md?page=2)