# Wind Turbine vs. Protected Eagles -- Who to root for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427 "2013-03-31T14:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/21 "2013-04-01T17:15:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no celebration of the failures of the environmental movement. I fear we are not going to have much of a discussion with a disagreement on this fundamental point. No threads get started by our more conservative posters discussing the downside of fracking, but when eagles are killed by wind turbines, we have this thread. And this is by no means a one-off on the anti-environmentalism of the right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/22 "2013-04-01T17:28:53Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Sounds like they’ll have to either get one or come to some similar agreement with the FWS to meet the terms of the Bald and Golden Eagle Act, or end up getting sued/fined out of existence. Well, no – despite the rules, the FWS has not chosen to impose penalties (as yet). > [@LA Times](#): > > Killing golden eagles is illegal under federal law, but so far, federal authorities have not prosecuted any wind farm operators for violations. If they’re threatening to start, I haven’t heard. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/23 "2013-04-01T17:36:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve never understood the right wing’s taking joy in the problems with the environmental movement. The failure of alternative energy companies, the anti-electric/hybrid cars hysteria, the use of fossil fuels by environmentalists, anti-recycling, or clean energy having any kind of negative effect brings out the animosity in the right wing like little else. I can understand a bit of smugness while looking at the tie dyed, longhaired hippy types who, for all their good intentions, don’t really accomplish much, but I don’t get the glee the right has in celebrating the perceived failures of the environmental movement. The people who own the Republican party are very heavily invested in fossil fuels. Renewable energy effects their investment in that every additional watt of renewable energy will not be a watt of fossil fuel energy. They will be holding oil fields and coal fields and gas fields with less demand. Let me draw an analogy: it used to be in order to play pinball, you had to go to an arcade. When video games became available, arcades went the way of the dinosaurs. When energy producers rely on wind and solar, they don’t have to pay the various mining and drilling interests. These people have invested everything in mining and drilling. Of course they hate renewables. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/24 "2013-04-01T17:39:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I fear we are not going to have much of a discussion with a disagreement on this fundamental point. No threads get started by our more conservative posters discussing the downside of fracking, but when eagles are killed by wind turbines, we have this thread. And this is by no means a one-off on the anti-environmentalism of the right. arguing cost benefits of something does not make it anti-environmental. Just because a politician writes a bit of legislation regarding a non-endangered species we shouldn’t challenge it. Nobody wants to live in a polluted environment or kill off a species. But throwing money at something doesn’t mean it’s productive use of the money. If something is on fire it doesn’t make sense to smother it with truck loads of money when a bucket of water will do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/25 "2013-04-01T17:45:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, again, is there some reason the wind turbine folks should not have to get a take permit? Yes, they are not actively hunting birds. Do you have a take permit for the bugs, birds, rabbits and whatever that you’ve hit with your car? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/26 "2013-04-01T17:45:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, no – despite the rules, the FWS has not chosen to impose penalties (as yet). If they’re threatening to start, I haven’t heard. I assume there needs to be a certain amount of animals killed, and some investigations such as the ones your article mentions are being done currently, before the FWS can say the bird deaths are “associated with” the turbines. But I can’t imagine the Audobon Society would allow to many years of avoidable bird-deaths to pile up before they sued the FWS to force them to take action, if they weren’t doing so already. [This article](http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/02/18/31294/golden-eagle-deaths-prompt-monitoring-worry-pine-t/) says they’re seeking “a permit”, which I assume is either the one you mention in the OP or something that serves the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/27 "2013-04-01T17:46:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, they are not actively hunting birds. Do you have a take permit for the bugs, birds, rabbits and whatever that you’ve hit with your car? Did you read the text of the law **Bricker** quoted? Its specifically for non-purposeful takings. If your regularly running over bald eagles with your car, you’d need one for that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/28 "2013-04-01T17:52:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Not that I doubt you, but do you have any estimates on the cost trends of thermal solar? This is one of those costs that are not as cut and dried as would be useful. PV solar cell costs have come down dramatically recently due to Chinese manufacturing. It’s possible to build a 1 mw system out of the box. But when using solar thermal you have the added benefit of tying natural gas into a steam turbine system. So the backup to solar thermal is cheaper. And I believe the power output consistency of solar thermal is greater than PV. Can’t find a good source with numbers. Don’t know about the life expectancy is of solar thermal is but I suspect it is something that can continually be maintained as opposed to a solar cell which has a life expectancy. It’s not an easy question to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/29 "2013-04-01T17:56:54Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Did you read the text of the law **Bricker** quoted? Its specifically for non-purposeful takings. If your regularly running over bald eagles with your car, you’d need one for that as well. Yes but my earlier point is that the money asked for this is nothing but legislation bullshit. It serves no purpose. Now if there are established procedures that could be incorporated into the wind farms to lower the number of animal deaths then they should be implemented. Writing a check does nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/30 "2013-04-01T18:05:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes but my earlier point is that the money asked for this is nothing but legislation bullshit. It serves no purpose. > > Now if there are established procedures that could be incorporated into the wind farms to lower the number of animal deaths then they should be implemented. Writing a check does nothing. What money are you talking about? My understanding is that the reason the permits are “expensive” is that they mandate implementation of procedures to lower the number of animal deaths, as you suggest. That’s the expense **Bricker** talks about in the OP. I don’t see anywhere where there’s any other mention of money. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/31 "2013-04-01T19:18:13Z")
If Sean Hannity decides to go sky-diving in an area filled with wind turbines, who do we root for? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/32 "2013-04-01T19:34:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > If Sean Hannity decides to go sky-diving in an area filled with wind turbines, who do we root for? Best hope the turbine blade doesn’t hit him in the head is all I can say… ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/33 "2013-04-01T19:47:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Best hope the turbine blade doesn’t hit him in the head is all I can say… Would he then qualify for disability? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/34 "2013-04-01T19:50:14Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Would he then qualify for disability? I don’t think so, as if it hit him in the head it would be like throwing an egg at a brick wall…the wall isn’t even going to notice. My main concern is to consider the massive damage to the turbine if it hit his head! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/35 "2013-04-01T22:12:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I assume there needs to be a certain amount of animals killed, and some investigations such as the ones your article mentions are being done currently, before the FWS can say the bird deaths are “associated with” the turbines. But I can’t imagine the Audobon Society would allow to many years of avoidable bird-deaths to pile up before they sued the FWS to force them to take action, if they weren’t doing so already. > > [This article](http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/02/18/31294/golden-eagle-deaths-prompt-monitoring-worry-pine-t/) says they’re seeking “a permit”, which I assume is either the one you mention in the OP or something that serves the same purpose. To quote from your link: > [@](#): > > Next month the DWP will do an additional survey of where the golden eagles breed. The surveys will help justify a permit DWP will seek from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to continue operations where the eagles (and raptors) fly. Maybe it’s just me, but I read that as saying they plan to submits the permit application in the future, using the survey results from a survey that hasn’t yet happened. What excuses them from failing to have done this already? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/36 "2013-04-01T22:58:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any energy policy more sophisticated than “Drill, Baby, Drill” or “You liberals are so stuupid about nukes” ? > Do we have a cite that Bricker, even once, had any concern about endangered species? > . . . > I call bullshit. Tradeoffs occur over and over everyday. There’s nothing special about this one, involving two issues you don’t care about, except that Bricker thought progressive thinkers are as small-brained as his idols, and this “paradox” would make their heads explode. :smack: > [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve never understood the right wing’s taking joy in the problems with the environmental movement. The failure of alternative energy companies, the anti-electric/hybrid cars hysteria, the use of fossil fuels by environmentalists, anti-recycling, or clean energy having any kind of negative effect brings out the animosity in the right wing like little else. I can understand a bit of smugness while looking at the tie dyed, longhaired hippy types who, for all their good intentions, don’t really accomplish much, but I don’t get the glee the right has in celebrating the perceived failures of the environmental movement. Aside from threadshitting and trying to start another partisan “_Left v Right_” feud, I see no purpose for these posts. Even if you have some long list of threads **Bricker** has started for the purpose of hyping petroleum or coal at the expense of alternative fuels, (and I really doubt that you could provide such a list), **septimus** ’s caricature of **Bricker** ’s postion in the OP and **Hamlet** ’s immediate leap into “_Left v Right_” partisanship do nothing to further the discussion in this thread. If **Bricker** ’s actions bother you on a personal level, go start a thread in The BBQ Pit. Otherwise, stick to the actual discussion of this thread and leave the _ad hominem_s and other grumbling out of it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/37 "2013-04-01T23:06:58Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve never understood the right wing’s taking joy in the problems with the environmental movement. The failure of alternative energy companies, the anti-electric/hybrid cars hysteria, the use of fossil fuels by environmentalists, anti-recycling, or clean energy having any kind of negative effect brings out the animosity in the right wing like little else. I can understand a bit of smugness while looking at the tie dyed, longhaired hippy types who, for all their good intentions, don’t really accomplish much, but I don’t get the glee the right has in celebrating the perceived failures of the environmental movement. Well, just about every environmental initiative is indirectly an attack on our lifestyle even if it has good intentions- the kind of cars we can drive; toilets, showerheads, and light bulbs we can use; renewable energy adding to costs of the electricity. So that’s why we take joy in pointing out perverse results, Eagles killed by windmills, mercury in CFLs, safety problems of small cars, and such. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/38 "2013-04-02T01:05:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no celebration of the failures of the environmental movement. We invented the EPA. What do you mean “we,” Kimosabe? Ya’ll threw out us moderate and liberal Republicans shortly after WE helped push through things like the EPA. Look even at Richard Nixon’s record, much less that of Nelson Rockefeller, and try to keep a straight face when you claim he could be elected by today’s Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/39 "2013-04-02T05:51:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, again, is there some reason the wind turbine folks should not have to get a take permit? I guess you’d have to demonstrate that the wind turbine folks were negligent. It has been asserted in this thread that the wind turbines were set up ‘in good faith’, which I am assuming includes the notion that the planners did not ignore foreseen risks. In a way that is water under the bridge though. Knowing what we know _now_, are there steps we can take to reduce raptor turbine deaths? Do those steps include not building wind turbines at all? Or, in the stated case, are wind turbines and their ‘cost’, for display example, of 100 raptor deaths per year a great alternative to Several Destroyed Areas of the Earth for Oil? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427/40 "2013-04-02T05:58:25Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > What money are you talking about? My understanding is that the reason the permits are “expensive” is that they mandate implementation of procedures to lower the number of animal deaths, as you suggest. That’s the expense **Bricker** talks about in the OP. > > I don’t see anywhere where there’s any other mention of money. Bricker implied that the process is expensive. The take permits themselves (or as I like to call them Eagle indulgences) are $500 to $1000 each. The funny part of all this is that the wind farms are part of one government mandate to improve air quality that is tasked with doing it in an environmentally friendly manner so they replant the area with native plants. That in turn draws native fauna which draw the eagles. It’s the perfect storm of competing environmental mandates driven by different government agencies. Og help us if the Eagles start eating an endangered species. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wind-turbine-vs-protected-eagles-who-to-root-for/654427.md?page=3)