# Winding up old aircraft
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 20, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765 "2006-01-20T02:46:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/1 "2006-01-20T02:46:04Z")
Some old aircraft had a port in the cowling into which a ground crewman would insert a crank. After winding the crank, the engine could be started. What’s going on?
[ul][li]It’s cranking over the engine, like on a Model T? (If so, why doesn’t the prop spin?)[/li][li]It’s winding a spring that turns the motor over when the pilot releases a catch?[/li]It’s turning a dynamo that provides electrical power for a starter?[/ul]
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/2 "2006-01-20T02:49:47Z")
At least two of the above, in my experience.
Pops Mercotan had an old Ryan PT-22 in the feckless days of youth, and the crank wound a spring when the catch was released.
He later got an old Fairchild PT-26, which cranked over the engine when I (being young and strong) was assigned to turn the crank. And the prop did turn as I turned the crank. Sometimes I’d get sick of turning the crank and just prop it.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/3 "2006-01-20T02:50:27Z")
I’m guessing that they are winding up a flywheel.
I have flown an aircraft where the start sequence involved flicking a swictch that spins up a flywheel and then, when the wheel is up to speed, you engaged the starter. The flywheel had enough energy to turn the engine over several revolutions.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/4 "2006-01-20T02:52:06Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#):
>
> wound a spring when the catch was released.
Sorry, that should read “wound a spring **which then turned the engine** when the catch was released”.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/5 "2006-01-20T05:24:58Z")
In the case of the Stearman Pt-17 the crank is speeding up a flywheel. When it gets going fast enough a lever is pulled out which engages the flywheel to the engine crankshaft and turns it over.
In Army aircraft using radial engines, as **1920s Style “Death Ray”** said, the wheel was spun up by an electric motor. In some there was one toggle switch that spun up the wheel while another switch engaged it. In others the toggle switch was a two throw, center off model. One direction of the bat spun up the wheel and the other position engaged it.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/6 "2006-01-20T14:42:01Z")
The specific image I have in my head is of an ME-109. Anyone know what system it used?
Thanks for the answers, guys. I didn’t realise that there would be more than one method of using the crank. I figured there was one standard way.
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/7 "2006-01-20T14:49:26Z")
A peripherally related question: I recently saw **Flight of the Phoenix**. What was that shotgun-shell thingie they used as part of the engine-starting process?
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/8 "2006-01-20T14:57:55Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> A peripherally related question: I recently saw **Flight of the Phoenix**. What was that shotgun-shell thingie they used as part of the engine-starting process?
The Navy’s WWII Gruman F4F and F6F used a shotgun shell starting system. I don’t know the details but what it did was provide a bunch of hot gas that would expand and drive some kind of motor that turned the engine over.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/9 "2006-01-20T15:08:05Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> A peripherally related question: I recently saw **Flight of the Phoenix**. What was that shotgun-shell thingie they used as part of the engine-starting process?
[A Coffman starter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter). It certainly made for more drama than the inertial starter in the OP. Hey, they could have just kept cranking it by hand otherwise.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/10 "2006-01-20T15:18:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> [A Coffman starter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter). It certainly made for more drama than the inertial starter in the OP. Hey, they could have just kept cranking it by hand otherwise.
I was just about to post that I wasn’t finding a specific definition by searching on ‘cartidge starting system’ on google, and here you post the name of it! (And as soon as I read it I said :smack: ‘_That’s_ what it was called!’
I was surprised to find out in my search that the system was also used on in-line engines and even jet engines. [This page](http://www.b-57canberra.org/b-57sounds.htm) shows a B-57 Canberra being started with one, and includes an audio file.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 20, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/11 "2006-01-20T15:20:45Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#):
>
> and includes an audio file.
I didn’t hear the Coffman starter. Just the turbine winding up.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/12 "2006-01-21T02:59:08Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#):
>
> The specific image I have in my head is of an ME-109. Anyone know what system it used?
>
> Thanks for the answers, guys. I didn’t realise that there would be more than one method of using the crank. I figured there was one standard way.
The BF109 has an inertial starter (I’m not sure when or why they became “ME”.) [From this BF109 manual (.PDF):](http://www.bf109.com/acrobat/bf109elowgerman.pdf)
> [@](#):
>
> B. START-UP, WARM-UP AND RUN-UP
>
> [ol]
> [li]Start-up It is assumed that the engine has been properly serviced and its tanks have been filled up. Before starting up the engine, you must place chocks in front of the wheels, place a fire extinguisher in raedinaess, remove the ladder and face the aircraft upwind. [/li]
> [list=1]
> [li]Close canopy.[/li][li]Set stabiliser to “Tail-heavy”.[/li][li]Switch on master power switch (Pull the knob on the starboard side behind the pilot’s seat) [/li][li]Switch on automatic pitch control (on the starboard side in the cockpit near the foot pedal) and the master switch for the pitch adjustment system (on the primary electrical panel). Set the change-over switch underneath the throttle lever to “Manual” (Handverstellung). Check that the blade pitch control works using the thumb switch on the throttle lever. Leave the airscrew pitch in the 12 o’clock position. Set the change-over switch to “Automatic” (Automatik ein). The airscrew pitch indicator should move to 12:30 o’clock. If the blades move further, the battery voltage is too low. If you cannot replace the battery, the change-over switch must be left on “Manual” at less than 1,900 RPM. [/li][li]Set fuel cock to P1 + P2. [/li][li]Increase throttle to 1/3. [/li][li]At low temperatures the airscrew has to be wound a few times by hand. [/li]Note: Ignition off and with utmost caution. If the engine is warm, turning the airscrew is forbidden. While winding the airscrew, pump the priming handle 4-6 times.
> [li]**Wind the inertia starter; the crank handle is in the tool compartment, the shaft is on the starboard side on top of the engine cowling.[/li]Note: At temperatures below -10°C, the starter must be accelerated so that the crank rotates one revolution per second; then pull the starter control with the ignition switched off. Having repeated this three times, wind up the starter to full speed and pull the starter control with the ignition switched on (switch set to “M1 + M2”). After the engine has started, replace the crank handle in the tool compartment.**
> [/ol][/list]
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/13 "2006-01-21T03:16:21Z")
> [@1920s Style "Death Ray"](#):
>
> The BF109 has an inertial starter (I’m not sure when or why they became “ME”.) [From this BF109 manual (.PDF):](http://www.bf109.com/acrobat/bf109elowgerman.pdf)
The US nomenclature for the 109 was ME-109.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/14 "2006-01-21T03:23:19Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> The US nomenclature for the 109 was ME-109.
Actually, I got curious and found this from [answers.com:](http://www.answers.com/topic/messerschmitt-bf-109)
> [@](#):
>
> (Bf 109 was the official Reichsluftfahrtministerium designation, since the design was sent in by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke company. Because the company was renamed to Messerschmitt, some late-war aircraft actually carried the Me 109 designation stamped onto their aircraft type plates. Me 109 was the name used officially by the Luftwaffe propaganda publications as well as by the Messerschmitt company and the Luftwaffe personnel, who pronounced it ‘may hundred-nine’. ME 109 - pronounced ‘emm ee one-oh-nine’ - was the contemporary English interpretation of the designation.)
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/15 "2006-01-21T04:29:43Z")
I used to be a stickler for calling it a BF-109 when I was a kid. Almost typed it in my previous post. But I’ve found that more people refer to it as ME-109 and it’s easier to use that nomenclature than to explain the BF.
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### Author:  [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/16 "2006-01-21T19:36:41Z")
> [@1920s Style "Death Ray"](#):
>
> - From his quote actually:\*who pronounced it ‘may hundred-nine’. ME 109 - pronounced ‘emm ee one-oh-nine’ - was the contemporary English interpretation of the designation.)
When a German says the letters “M” and “e” in rapid succession, it will sound almost exactly like the english word “may”. …E is prounounced “aye”…the first letter of the alphabet being “ahh”
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### Author:  [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/17 "2006-01-21T19:47:46Z")
> [@1920s Style "Death Ray"](#):
>
> - From his quote actually:\*who pronounced it ‘may hundred-nine’. ME 109 - pronounced ‘emm ee one-oh-nine’ - was the contemporary English interpretation of the designation.)
When a German says the letters “M” and “e” in rapid succession, it will sound almost exactly like the english word “may”. …E is prounounced “aye”…the first letter of the alphabet being “ahh”
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### Author:  [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winding-up-old-aircraft/340765/18 "2006-01-22T04:49:15Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#):
>
> I used to be a stickler for calling it a BF-109 when I was a kid. Almost typed it in my previous post. But I’ve found that more people refer to it as ME-109 and it’s easier to use that nomenclature than to explain the BF.
From what I’ve read even after the BFW company changed their name to Messerschmitt their product was still officially called the Bf 109. It was only when a new model came out (I think the 109E model, but I’m not positive) that the official designation became the Me 109 since it was considered to be designed by the Messerschmitt company, not the BFW company. The '109s in use during the Spanish Civil War are definitely Bf 109s, but most models in use during WWII could properly be called the Me 109. Just like their twin-engine fighter was originally the Bf-110, it became the Me 110 in later models. So Me 109 is more likely to be correct (or at least more common) than Bf 109 if you’re talking about World War II. Interviews I’ve read and seen with Luftwaffe fliers also will usually refer to them as the Me 109.