# Windows 8.1 vs 7 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 6, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850 "2014-05-06T22:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/21 "2014-05-07T08:51:02Z")
> [@Silophant](#): > > Or even just press the physical power button on your computer. Every single other modern electronic device is turned off with the same button used to turn it on, and there’s no reason computers should be different. This. From [this](http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/windows-8-1-update-1-more-interface-concessions-that-still-wont-make-people-happy/) Ars Technica article: > [@](#): > > The former button replicates the button found inside the settings charm, and it is a bit of an oddity. The problem with the charm is that it’s hard to find for some people. What’s a bit strange is that people are even looking for it in the first place. > > While early PCs had dumb power switches that unceremoniously cut the power to the machine, the use of electronic power buttons—buttons that can tell the operating system to perform an orderly system shutdown before killing the power—have been a feature since the introduction of the ATX specification in late 1995. Any system on the market today can be shut down by pressing the same button that you used to turn it on. On the face of it, at least, this should make the on-screen button fairly unimportant. In 1994 we go so good at driving home the point that you should not just cut power to a computer willy-nilly, that 20 years later people are still afraid of doing anything that even looks like that. Once I read that article, I completely stopped caring about where the software power button is. [QUOTE=Mangetout] By default, I think that makes Windows 8 go to sleep/hibernate, rather than shut down (at least, it does on laptops) - this behaviour can be configured, and maybe hibernation isn’t all that undesirable in many cases. [/QUOTE] Hibernation is desirable in a lot of cases, though. Installing updates requires a full reboot, but I have yet to find anything else that does. Older Windows versions would get corrupted and crash if you didn’t do a clean reboot periodically, but I haven’t seen that happen since Win95. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/22 "2014-05-07T12:26:24Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Wrong. Microsoft and their version numbers are screwy, and for whatever reason they have numbered 8 as 6.2 internally, but functionally it is an entirely new operating system. Or, at least as much as many of the other “incremental” jumps were. > > For example, windows 95 and 98 were both 4.X versions of windows, but were fundamentally different in important ways. 2000 and XP similarly were 5.X and very different from one another in many ways (definitely more than just UI tweaks which you seem to imply). > > You can’t just look at a microsoft version number and conclude much of anything. > > Windows 8 is just about as fundamentally different from 7 as 7 was from XP. There were major changes done to the kernel. It is _NOT_ the “Same underlying OS converted to a tablet style.” > > And FYI, I bought a new computer in 2012, an Alienware, that came preinstalled with Windows 7. I upgraded to 8 and dual booted for a while, and clocked _measurable_ speed performances for several tasks, most starkly was bootup and shutdown time. > > [8 is demonstrably faster on the same hardware.](http://usabilitygeek.com/windows-8-vs-windows-7-speed-and-performance-testing/) > > [Another link.](http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp) > > This is general questions and when you go around saying things like “windows 8 is only faster because people are running it on newer hardware” you are spreading false information. The large startup and shutdown speedups are based on a lot of smoke and mirrors, though. The biggest one being that shutting down the computer actually logs you out and then hibernates. Furthermore, if you dual boot, part of Windows 8 loads before you can even choose to boot Windows 7. If you always reboot rather than shutdown, and use an OS selector that skips the startup screen, the change is much less dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/23 "2014-05-07T12:30:03Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > Hibernation is desirable in a lot of cases, though. Installing updates requires a full reboot, but I have yet to find anything else that does. Older Windows versions would get corrupted and crash if you didn’t do a clean reboot periodically, but I haven’t seen that happen since Win95. I’ve not seen them crash, but I’ve often seen them get a lot slower. It’s much better than Windows of old, but not great. Also, my dog jumped on my keyboard, apparently made the computer try to go to sleep, but it failed. I had to do a hard shutdown, and Windows 8 went into recovery mode when I came back. I lost all the files in both user folders, as well as some files needed for boot. I get losing the file that was being accessed, but not losing whole folders. I’m lucky I still have a copy from my Windows 7 partition before I upgraded. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/24 "2014-05-07T12:43:22Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > While on the desktop, right click on the Windows symbol (the start button) in the lower left hand corner. Select “shut down or signout” from the menu. > > Alternatively, move mouse to upper right hand corner, select “settings” from the menu that appears, and then select “power.” > > If you can’t remember that, just type “shut down” into the search box. Hey, look at that! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![jerez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c68b51/32.png) [@jerez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerez)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/25 "2014-05-07T12:45:09Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > I also don’t like the fact that they force you to log in at start up. There’s an easy way around that, too. Sorry, nothing to offer, but I remember finding that incredibly annoying and coming across a quick and easy fix. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/26 "2014-05-07T12:52:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Also, my dog jumped on my keyboard, apparently made the computer try to go to sleep, but it failed. I had to do a hard shutdown, and Windows 8 went into recovery mode when I came back. I lost all the files in both user folders, as well as some files needed for boot. I get losing the file that was being accessed, but not losing whole folders. That sounds weird, but I don’t see how we can attribute it to the failings of any specific OS, unless your dog has jumped on all of them. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/27 "2014-05-07T12:52:38Z")
Is the installed size of Windows 8 comparable to windows 7? I mean the hard drive space it takes up. Can anyone running 8.1 tell me the size of their windows folder? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/28 "2014-05-07T14:15:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Is the installed size of Windows 8 comparable to windows 7? I mean the hard drive space it takes up. Can anyone running 8.1 tell me the size of their windows folder? Running Windows 8.1 64 bit on a laptop. All available Windows updates installed. Windows folder is currently 13.4 gigs, which IIRC, compares favourably to Windows 7. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/29 "2014-05-07T14:31:27Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Will I have a horrible time shifting from XP to 8.1? Are there routines that are easy in XP and more complicated in 8.1? Am really interested in hearing your experiences with this. The two major complaints about Windows 8/8.1 are: - the Metro UI interface; - the removal of the start menu The Metro UI interface is clumsy and frustrating to use on non-touchscreen devices, but you can choose to boot directly to desktop mode and never see Metro UI afterwards. There are a number of third party applications that will restore the start menu. I use IOBit’s Start Menu 8, but ClassicShell, as recommended by \*\*Beauregard Porkypine \*\* is also a good option. It will take you all of three minutes to do the above and the learning curve between XP and 8 is trivial. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/30 "2014-05-07T14:38:08Z")
> [@Silophant](#): > > Every single other modern electronic device is turned off with the same button used to turn it on, and there’s no reason computers should be different. So there is a law that all electronic devices must turn off the same way? If it’s convenient for some people to turn it off with software in some cases then that is clearly a good reason to have that feature. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/31 "2014-05-07T14:44:12Z")
I just got a new laptop running 8.1 and I’m getting used to it now. Other than the Metro interface (why are you trying to shoehorn a mobile OS into Windows? If I wanted my computer to look like Android I’d have installed Linux) and the non-intuitive locations of things like the power options\*, I can’t really complain. Plus, the search feature _is_ genuinely useful. I hear that 8.2 will offer an old-style Start menu, and I will go back to it. \*Not that anything in previous iterations of Windows was intuitive, but at least you knew where it was via years of experience. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/32 "2014-05-07T16:23:02Z")
I’ve tried Windows 8 and I don’t like it. Sorry, but I don’t want my computer acting like a smart phone. I’m upgrading to Windows 7. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/33 "2014-05-07T16:31:02Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Wrong. Microsoft and their version numbers are screwy, and for whatever reason they have numbered 8 as 6.2 internally, but functionally it is an entirely new operating system. Or, at least as much as many of the other “incremental” jumps were. Nope. From a user’s point of view, the tablet style interface is a lot different. Underneath the hood, they made very few changes to the existing OS. Aside from tablet support, the only real major change was security and authentication. The stuff that you see and touch changed dramatically. The stuff that you didn’t see didn’t change much. There’s much more to the OS that you don’t see than there is that you do see. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > For example, windows 95 and 98 were both 4.X versions of windows, but were fundamentally different in important ways. In what ways? They added some things to Windows 4.0 (95) to make 4.1 (98), like a new driver model (that wasn’t widely advertised and hardly anyone actually used), USB support, ACPI, and some networking stuff, but the only real internal change they made were related to floppy and hard drive interfaces and making the registry stuff a bit more robust. The rest of the existing OS stayed pretty much the same. All windows 4.x operating systems are structurally the same, and are different than both windows 3.x and the NT series of operating systems. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > 2000 and XP similarly were 5.X and very different from one another in many ways (definitely more than just UI tweaks which you seem to imply). Again, what do you think is so dramatically different? They changed a lot of internals between NT 4 and NT 5 (2000). Those internals stayed mostly the same for NT 5.1 (XP). There were minor improvements to a lot of things, but no major changes except to the UI. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > You can’t just look at a microsoft version number and conclude much of anything. Actually, IMHO, the version numbers give you a much clearer indication of what’s going on inside the OS than anything else. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > Windows 8 is just about as fundamentally different from 7 as 7 was from XP. There were major changes done to the kernel. It is _NOT_ the “Same underlying OS converted to a tablet style.” What major changes were made to the kernel? > [@drewtwo99](#): > > And FYI, I bought a new computer in 2012, an Alienware, that came preinstalled with Windows 7. I upgraded to 8 and dual booted for a while, and clocked _measurable_ speed performances for several tasks, most starkly was bootup and shutdown time. That does seem to be where they made the most noticeable improvements in speed, and I’ve never really considered those to be significant. Windows plays too many games when starting. I’ve started my Windows box and my Linux box at the same time. The Windows box comes up to a user interface much faster (see, it loads faster!) but that’s just faking you out. It’s still doing a lot of stuff in the background. The time from power on to loading a web page is nearly identical on both machines. But most folks would say the Windows machine loaded faster because it presented it’s user interface much sooner. Once they are up and running, I don’t notice any significant difference in speed between my Windows 7 and my Windows 8.1 box when they are doing the same things. There may be some minor differences, but they aren’t significant during normal use. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/34 "2014-05-07T17:35:14Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The Windows box comes up to a user interface much faster (see, it loads faster!) but that’s just faking you out. It’s still doing a lot of stuff in the background. The time from power on to loading a web page is nearly identical on both machines. But most folks would say the Windows machine loaded faster because it presented it’s user interface much sooner. In my experience, even non-geeks learn this trick pretty quickly, and they don’t say that Windows loaded faster, because they’ve learned from bitter experience that even though you can SEE the Start button, you can’t DO anything with it yet. They learn that this is a good time to go for a cup of coffee. For decades, the top item on my wish list has been for Windows to give a message box saying, “Windows is now finished starting up. You may now get to work.” - because until I get that message, my only way to know whether or not bootup is complete is to try clicking stuff - which just slows it down even more. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/35 "2014-05-07T17:39:55Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Windows 8.1 is a vast improvement over 7 in many fundamental ways. It is much faster and more reliable, has a much more powerful task manager, has a better/more useful file transfer dialogue, a kick-ass right-click menu that pops up when you right-click the start button, among many other things. You never have to touch metro if you don’t want to, but it honestly is very handy to have a big screen pop up with search results when you type the name of a program or something. I use the email app to integrate my various email programs. Switching between apps and desktop programs is a breeze. > > There are a few other technical things that 8.1 can do that 7 can’t, but I won’t get into it unless you want me to. Suffice it to say that the folks who are declaring 8.1 to be a disaster on an epic scale (like ME or Vista) are just flat out wrong. They might not like the metro UI (a somewhat silly criticism since you are almost never forced to use it), but the underlying architecture for 8.1 compared to 7 is miles better. > > And I’m a huge fan of 7. I heartily concur with this post. I had XP for years both at home and at work. I have been working in Win 7 at work for years and have a Win 8.1 laptop and Surface RT. Windows 8.1 Start screen kicks freaking butt over the old digging through Start Menu options, filtering out the Read Me shortcuts, app uninstallers, etc… Commonly used programs get pinned to the Start Screen or task bar pretty much as before. So, why the whining? I don’t know. Throw in a few little things like ISO mounting being built in and no prompting when recycling files confirming you want to do that. You still are prompted when a delete action will be permanent. One less annoying click that has always annoyed me. Get a handle on the Charms bar’s contextual awareness and you will find it to be an intuitive tool. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/36 "2014-05-07T21:09:43Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > What say you geeks out there in SDMB land? Will I have a horrible time shifting from XP to 8.1? Are there routines that are easy in XP and more complicated in 8.1? Am really interested in hearing your experiences with this. My opinion is that the 8.1 update fixed everything wrong with 8.0. (Which, admittedly, was quite a bit of stuff.) The Metro/Windows App mode is no longer a “mode”, those apps can be put into windows and dragged around just like anything else. The start menu is still gone, but IMO the start screen is just as good-- it might require a bit more manual effort to organize, but once you’ve organized it you’ll find it a lot easier to find your programs. And if you really hate the start screen, just pin all your apps to the taskbar and pretend it’s OS X. It works fine that way too. (And of course Windows-key -\> start typing application name still works exactly as it did before.) That all said: it doesn’t improve on a lot over Windows 7. The file copy system is more sophisticated and handles duplicate files much smarter. The Task Manager has been revised and is a lot more useful, but of course few people ever even look at that. It seems like the OS boots a bit quicker, although I haven’t stopwatch-ed it. Whether or not you like the Windows 8 “look” better than you like Windows 7’s Aero is probably a matter of opinion-- I’m perfectly ok with it. Anyway, I’d say buy a 8.1 laptop but arrange for the possibility of downgrading if it turns out you really don’t like it. Still, give it a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/37 "2014-05-07T21:16:14Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > What no one can explain to me is: Why should I have to? > > What’s wrong with adding functionality without taking away any? Did M$ really think no one would miss the start button? I think the problem is that Microsoft added Windows key -\> type app name to launch apps in Vista, and by the time replacing Windows 7 came around, they probably just assumed everybody used that (or pinning to the task bar) instead of the Start button. I think it’s an age/experience divide: if you work at a software company writing the OS you probably don’t use it in the way that, say, a middle-aged secretary at a church uses it. And the thought that some people would have completely skipped Vista and never learned its improvements probably wouldn’t even have occurred to you-- after all, people upgrade as soon as the new version comes out, right? So for people who skipped Vista (and in some cases Windows 7) and never learned the “new way of launching apps”, I wager removal of the Start button was a real shock. For people who adopted the Windows-key program launching and pinning apps to the task bar as soon as those features were available in 2007, then removing the Start button is kind of a “duh” thing. Why wouldn’t you? It’s not like anybody used it anymore. Anyway, I could be wrong, but I think that’s probably some of the cause of the consternation over Windows 8. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/38 "2014-05-07T21:58:45Z")
> [@jerez](#): > > There’s an easy way around that, too. Sorry, nothing to offer, but I remember finding that incredibly annoying and coming across a quick and easy fix. Thank god for Google. You’re right, it was easy, it took me all of 2 minutes to do. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/39 "2014-05-07T23:15:05Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > So for people who skipped Vista (and in some cases Windows 7) and never learned the “new way of launching apps”, I wager removal of the Start button was a real shock. This was pretty much the case for me - I went straight from XP to Win8 at home - and the shock of not having a start menu was pretty severe initially, but I was determined to give it a fair try and use it without modification for at least a fortnight. I very quickly discovered that my previous use of the Start menu had been a horrible, inefficient thing. I had a great many installed applications and launching them from within the Start menu had meant navigating across multiple nested, scrolling/collapsing columns to try to find the thing I wanted. In fact, this had already become such a chore on XP that I had taken to the habit of creating themed desktop folders containing all my application shortcuts. Interestingly, this is not a million miles away from the way I use the Win8 Start screen - I hardly bother with Live tiles - I hardly use any Modern UI apps - my Start Screen contains themed collections of application shortcut icons. My Start Screen is a Start menu - it’s just easier to navigate than ever before - and for anything I only use rarely, I search for it in the same screen just by typing. The other key thing that I think put a lot of people off Win8 is that they didn’t seem to realise that they are not obliged to use Metro/Modern UI apps at all, if they don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850/40 "2014-05-08T00:48:18Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > I think the problem is that Microsoft added Windows key -\> type app name to launch apps in Vista, and by the time replacing Windows 7 came around, they probably just assumed everybody used that (or pinning to the task bar) instead of the Start button. > > I think it’s an age/experience divide: if you work at a software company writing the OS you probably don’t use it in the way that, say, a middle-aged secretary at a church uses it. And the thought that some people would have completely skipped Vista and never learned its improvements probably wouldn’t even have occurred to you-- after all, people upgrade as soon as the new version comes out, right? > > So for people who skipped Vista (and in some cases Windows 7) and never learned the “new way of launching apps”, I wager removal of the Start button was a real shock. For people who adopted the Windows-key program launching and pinning apps to the task bar as soon as those features were available in 2007, then removing the Start button is kind of a “duh” thing. Why wouldn’t you? It’s not like anybody used it anymore. > > Anyway, I could be wrong, but I think that’s probably some of the cause of the consternation over Windows 8. I sincerely thank you for totally validating my suspicion that M$ cares more about selling more new stuff, and is not at all interested in what their current user base wants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-8-1-vs-7/687850.md?page=3)