# Windows Vista Myth Busting **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311 "2007-07-11T02:21:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/121 "2007-07-13T19:51:55Z")
Sorry to do this to you again, but: [QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] -double click ‘my computer’…uh, you can’t. It’s not there anymore. -Click on ‘computer’ under the start button (network properties was then a rightclick away on the ‘network item’ under XP) there’s no context menu on ‘Computer’ anymore. [/QUOTE] 1. XP, by default, did not place a My Computer icon on the desktop. You could right click on the desktop, choose Properties, and tell XP to put My Computer on the desktop, along with My Network Places, etc., but this was not the default. 2. There _is_ a context (right-click) menu on Start-\>Computer in my Vista install. I’m pretty sure it has the same menu items as the XP version (open, explore, search, manage, map network drive, etc). ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/122 "2007-07-14T00:00:59Z")
I’m going to back off on response #1, above. That’s my recollection, but I’m not finding any backup for it (one way or the other). FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/123 "2007-07-14T10:49:54Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Tell you what, I will stop being snarky and condescending if you do. If you read your first reply to me, you might see where I found it condescending. [/quote] Fair enough. I’ll accept that, although I disagree. If you took my comments to be snarky, condescending, or glib that was not my intention and I apologize. > [@](#): > > We are both IT pros with pretty good credentials. Yup > [@](#): > > You make some good points, but you seem to be glossing over the warts in Vista. Respectfully disagree. I’m not glossing over anything, and specifically said if there were app compat or hw supportability issues, not to upgrade. > [@](#): > > By older hardware, I should have specifically said older peripherals. There have been quite a few issues with people being unable to get an older scanner or multi-function to work without headaches or jumping through hoops. > > In my case, I have a Network Color Laser from a fairly off brand, Konica-Minolta. Getting my Vista Laptop to print to it was a struggle I never had with 98 and XP. As I said before, if there is a driving reason not to upgrade, and if you know that the application or HW simply won’t run on Vista and there’s not an upgrade for that HW / SW, then don’t upgrade. Nobody is forcing you to. Where I object is a knee-jerk 'don’t upgrade ‘cause it sucks’ attitude without doing the actual research in why and how and what the impact will be. > [@](#): > > It is issues like this that means for most or at least many people, that it can be more of a hassle than it is really worth to buy a Vista machine as long as they still have an option. Only if people are married to old kit and old software. In this day and age where it’s nearly as cheap to replace a printer completely as replace a toner cartridge, does it really make that big of an impact if your old printer needs to get replaced when you buy a new PC? Face it - most people will only upgrade their OS when they buy a new PC. Most PC users won’t upgrade their OS until then, unless they’re hobbyists who just want to play around. So what’s the big deal? > [@](#): > > At work, we need to accommodate everything from AutoCad and Wildfire, to Production monitoring software and camera software to AS400/Iseries Client software. Going to Vista is not a reasonable option yet and will not be for an extended time, at least a year. Mid Size companies like mine are part of the reason why Dell & HP are still offering (or again offering) XP loaded boxes. And like I said, fair enough. There’s sound business decisions behind this stance, which I can’t argue with. I would argue than any main-line software or hardware will be fully upgraded to be Vista compatible in less than a year, but if you’ve made a decision of when to entertain an upgrade I can’t fault you for that. > [@](#): > > As for home use, Vista just does not offer me or the collection of family and friends I support any advantages yet. I am not saying switch to Mac, but for the first time, it does not sound crazy to me. 😉 Your decision. I think you’re wrong, but if that’s your choice then c’est la vie. I won’t loose any sleep over it. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/124 "2007-07-14T10:51:07Z")
[QUOTE=squeegee] I’m going to back off on response #1, above. That’s my recollection, but I’m not finding any backup for it (one way or the other). FWIW. [/QUOTE] Your recollection was right. A base XP install didn’t put anything on the desktop except for recycle bin. You could right-click on computer, documents, etc.. in the start menu and put it on the desktop, but it wasn’t there by default. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/125 "2007-07-14T11:00:11Z")
[QUOTE=LionelHutz405] So begin. I’ve explained my business. You tell me an application that I need that isn’t available for Win 2000 but is available on Vista. [/quote] I need more info. How many seats in your business? what sector is your business in? What does your in-house application do? How is it hosted - client hosted, n-tier, web service, mainframe, what? How do your clients access the data they require - locally stored? Database connections? Who manages your network, your own IT guys or a 3rd party hoster? > [@](#): > > No, you are wrong. Maintenance costs have decreased to practically nil because the environment is stable and reliable. This is a good thing. My time is spent on adding new functionality. Day-to-day maintenance is trivial. This is a sweet spot to be in and I’m not keen to move from it for no good reason. Then as I’ve said repeatedly, don’t upgrade. You don’t have to. > [@](#): > > Can’t buy hardware to run them anymore? I’m talking standard off-the-shelf PCs that you can buy anywhere. Hardware like that will be available for decades. > > \ > > My hardware vendor tells me they can’t get Win2000 from Microsoft anymore. I blame Microsoft for that. That’s their decision, not the vendor’s. Who’s your hardware vendor, Chuck’s PC down the road? Any mainline vendor will be able to create a bespoke build for your organisation which will have a base OS build of whatever you want. > [@](#): > > Of course it’s sustainable. When the hardware wears out I’ll just buy new. It’s just your standard desk-top PC. The only problem will be my inability to duplicate the operating system environment because it’s not sold anymore. I’m guessing you have a small-to-medium size business, say under 1000 seats. In which case the model you describe is perfectly sustainable and I understand your frustration - Microsoft works best for home users and big enterprises, but we’ve a bit of a blind spot in the small-to-mid-size business area. That said, I would still bet that whatever software you’re running you could buy shrink-wrapped off-the-shelf and spend less and be able to run it on whatever hardware platform or OS you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![LionelHutz405](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lionelhutz405/32/536_2.png) [@LionelHutz405](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LionelHutz405)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/126 "2007-07-14T11:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] I’m guessing you have a small-to-medium size business, say under 1000 seats. In which case the model you describe is perfectly sustainable and I understand your frustration - Microsoft works best for home users and big enterprises, but we’ve a bit of a blind spot in the small-to-mid-size business area. That said, I would still bet that whatever software you’re running you could buy shrink-wrapped off-the-shelf and spend less and be able to run it on whatever hardware platform or OS you’d like. [/QUOTE] Our main software is highly customized and not available shrink-wrapped. Yes, a small business. And you are right Microsoft does have a blind spot there. Probably because most operate under the same philosophy I do. You don’t screw with a working system without a good reason. It’s hard for Microsoft to make money off of that. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/127 "2007-07-14T14:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=LionelHutz405] Our main software is highly customized and not available shrink-wrapped. Yes, a small business. And you are right Microsoft does have a blind spot there. Probably because most operate under the same philosophy I do. You don’t screw with a working system without a good reason. It’s hard for Microsoft to make money off of that. [/QUOTE] I’d still bet you’re able to replace what you’ve built with an off-the-shelf with limited customisation, but c’est la vie. Your model is a tough one for us to crack, but we’re doing some work in Shared Services and the like which may make it easier. Best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/128 "2007-07-14T14:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] I’d still bet you’re able to replace what you’ve built with an off-the-shelf with limited customisation, but c’est la vie. Your model is a tough one for us to crack, but we’re doing some work in Shared Services and the like which may make it easier. Best of luck. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t be so quick to make that statement. Our personal albatross is an application created by an external contractor (long since gone), who wrote it for a business unit, who didn’t bother to ask the IT department’s assistance in writing the functional spec. The end result is: 1/3 of our workstations cannot be migrated past IE6 pre SP1 as the application breaks. (Interactions between ActiveX, Seibel, and their custom coded crap) That means the single dirtiest application, that hits the nasties sites, and is the biggest source of infection CANNOT BE PROTECTED. As the Security dude, I’ve gotta protect everything else AROUND them as I can’t protect them directly. Numbskulls with money, sent it to someone who wanted to get-in-get-out-stop-support, and IT gets to pick up the pieces. A series of events for which, I’m afraid I’m much too familiar. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/129 "2007-07-14T15:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] I wouldn’t be so quick to make that statement. Our personal albatross is an application created by an external contractor (long since gone), who wrote it for a business unit, who didn’t bother to ask the IT department’s assistance in writing the functional spec. The end result is: 1/3 of our workstations cannot be migrated past IE6 pre SP1 as the application breaks. (Interactions between ActiveX, Seibel, and their custom coded crap) That means the single dirtiest application, that hits the nasties sites, and is the biggest source of infection CANNOT BE PROTECTED. As the Security dude, I’ve gotta protect everything else AROUND them as I can’t protect them directly. Numbskulls with money, sent it to someone who wanted to get-in-get-out-stop-support, and IT gets to pick up the pieces. A series of events for which, I’m afraid I’m much too familiar. [/QUOTE] Not just your personal albatross, it’s a very common one. Someone writes something, doesn’t write it well, and then leaves without ensuring supportability, security, etc… Microsoft catches the blame for this sort of stuff all the time, even though it’s rarely ‘our’ fault. We’ve all sorts of publicly-available and Gold-partner-available stuff out there to help with this sort of thing - writing secure code, writing supportable code, etc and for our enterprise customers we’ve supportability reviews and the like which also lessen the pain, but it still happens a lot. I’d look at stuff like Softgrid for desktop application virtualisation - it might work wonders, and removes some application dependencies on the OS. Try [here](http://www.microsoft.com/systemcenter/softgrid/evaluation/default.mspx) for more information. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/130 "2007-07-14T15:04:49Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Your recollection was right. A base XP install didn’t put anything on the desktop except for recycle bin. You could right-click on computer, documents, etc.. in the start menu and put it on the desktop, but it wasn’t there by default. I’m gonna have to ask for a cite on that one from you or **squeegee**. I suspect there are situations where XP did or did not install the my computer icon on the desktop. (home or pro, upgrade or fresh install, OEM, or Sysprepped) IIRC, XP _started_ with My computer on the desktop, but a fresh SP2 install might not. But the point I was making was that there were 5 ways to do something in XP, there’s 2 ways to do it in Vista, and they didn’t happen to overlap with the way I was used to doing stuff. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/131 "2007-07-14T15:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] I’m gonna have to ask for a cite on that one from you or **squeegee**. I suspect there are situations where XP did or did not install the my computer icon on the desktop. (home or pro, upgrade or fresh install, OEM, or Sysprepped) IIRC, XP _started_ with My computer on the desktop, but a fresh SP2 install might not. But the point I was making was that there were 5 ways to do something in XP, there’s 2 ways to do it in Vista, and they didn’t happen to overlap with the way I was used to doing stuff. [/QUOTE] It was a default setting in XP, as well as XPSP2, to have a ‘clean’ desktop. Some OEMs gave out build images for their PCs which had the desktop icons installed by default, but if you bought off-the-shelf XP or SP2, you’d have no icons on the desktop except Recycle Bin by default. You could add them from the start menu. And every way to do something in XP is still there in Vista. It might be a little bit different, but it’s still there. You can also change the UI in Vista to ‘classic’ view, which is more like XP, so all the functionality is pretty much the same. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/132 "2007-07-14T15:13:25Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] You can also change the UI in Vista to ‘classic’ view, which is more like XP, so all the functionality is pretty much the same. [/QUOTE] Replying to my own message is a bit cheeky, but here’s how you do it: (From the Vista help file) -\> Under Theme, select the Windows Classic theme in the drop-down list, and then click OK. You can also customize the hell out of the themes to reflect whatever you like, something that wasn’t widely available in XP. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/133 "2007-07-14T15:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] I’d look at stuff like Softgrid for desktop application virtualisation - it might work wonders, and removes some application dependencies on the OS. Try [here](http://www.microsoft.com/systemcenter/softgrid/evaluation/default.mspx) for more information. [/QUOTE] Noted, I’ll check it out on Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/134 "2007-07-14T18:06:15Z")
I have checked it out, and it’s Death by Marketing Speak. Sounds a bit like warmed over SMS (shudder) or Windows Live. If it is something more than that, don’t blame me, Microsoft guy - that web page sucks, it dithers around before not telling you what this Softgrid thing actually is. You can click on the tiny, illegible diagram to learn, well, nothing more than the little you already knew. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/135 "2007-07-14T23:16:43Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] I have checked it out, and it’s Death by Marketing Speak. Sounds a bit like warmed over SMS (shudder) or Windows Live. If it is something more than that, don’t blame me, Microsoft guy - that web page sucks, it dithers around before not telling you what this Softgrid thing actually is. You can click on the tiny, illegible diagram to learn, well, nothing more than the little you already knew. [/QUOTE] I didn’t get that impression at all. It looked closer to a VMware/Terminal Server/Citrix product. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/136 "2007-07-16T10:16:13Z")
[QUOTE=Unintentionally Blank] I didn’t get that impression at all. It looked closer to a VMware/Terminal Server/Citrix product. [/QUOTE] Sort of both. It’s a tool that allows you to abstract application requirements from the OS with a cross between virtualisation and emulation. It can be a deployment tool, it can be a virtualisation tool. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/137 "2007-07-21T10:23:18Z")
After playing around in it a few times it refused to boot on my new laptop. Something about a corrupted hive. I have been too disgusted to fix it as of now. Meanwhile, XP gust keeps chugging along on my I-mac production machine. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/138 "2007-07-27T08:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=LionelHutz405] Because Microsoft won’t sell the old versions that I need. If I want to buy a new PC (for a new employee, not to replace an existing PC) I want 2000 pro on it because I know all our software works with that operating system. I can’t buy a new PC and get it with Windows 2000 pro on it. That is Microsoft’s decision. [/QUOTE] Incorrect [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4f4b3cfd-7f4e-46cb-8117-8275f7683d3f&DisplayLang=en](http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4f4b3cfd-7f4e-46cb-8117-8275f7683d3f&DisplayLang=en) From the linked doc file > [@](#): > > Rights to OEM versions of systems software are granted in the OEM License Terms. The OEM License Terms for most OEM versions of systems software do not grant downgrade rights. **The exception is the OEM License Terms for the Windows® XP Professional operating system and the Windows Vista™ Business and Windows Vista Ultimate operating systems, which grant downgrade rights**. See the full text of the OEM License Terms for the specific downgrade rights. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/139 "2007-07-27T10:57:45Z")
So, is Microsoft still insisting that hardware manufacturers cripple their output in the name of Premium Content Protection such that things like S/PDIF and high res video playback to the monitor won’t work if ‘premium content’ is detected? I mean, I really can’t **wait** to get an OS that deliberately downgrades the quality of audio and video that my computer can display - that’s why I spent the cash to get hardware that could do all the high-end stuff. So my OS will disable it and I can’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![LionelHutz405](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lionelhutz405/32/536_2.png) [@LionelHutz405](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LionelHutz405)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311/140 "2007-07-27T12:47:18Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] Incorrect [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4f4b3cfd-7f4e-46cb-8117-8275f7683d3f&DisplayLang=en](http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4f4b3cfd-7f4e-46cb-8117-8275f7683d3f&DisplayLang=en) From the linked doc file [/QUOTE] I don’t understand. Doesn’t that document refer to the rights to USE prior versions? I want to BUY a prior version. My vendor (admittedly a small shop) can’t do that for me. I don’t know of any vendor who can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/windows-vista-myth-busting/411311.md?page=8)