# Winds of Change: Flag Department **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 10, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329 "2016-12-10T05:53:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/1 "2016-12-10T05:53:44Z")
There’s a vacant lot I drive by regularly. Every fall, there’s an itinerant flag guy who sets up shop there in a little trailer, flying about 2 dozen flags for sale: Canada, US, provinces, sports teams, etc. After a couple of weeks he disappears until next year. For several years as I drive by, I’ve noticed him selling the Confederate battle flag. Not this year. No Confederate flags that I could see. Instead, he’s now got the Pride flag flying. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/2 "2016-12-10T06:11:52Z")
Are you really in Regina, SK, as your location field suggests? It seems odd that someone in Canada would sell Confederate flags. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/3 "2016-12-10T06:43:09Z")
Yes, that’s where I am. Yes, the Confederate flag is seen around here, often as a licence plate and decals on half-ton trucks. Until about ten years ago, I regularly saw those plates for sale at Canadian Tire, but they’ve disappeared from there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/4 "2016-12-10T06:47:06Z")
By the way, kudos for getting the Deadpool reference. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/5 "2016-12-10T07:37:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > By the way, kudos for getting the Deadpool reference. 🙂 To be fair, I had to use Google to verify, because of the incongruity to me of Canadian Confederates. ---
**Author:** ![apollonia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/6 "2016-12-10T13:03:23Z")
Confederate window decals, flags, belt buckles, etc., are still widely available at Canadian Tires and assorted hardware stores/“country” stores/guns and ammo stores here in rural Ontario. I saw a truck yesterday flying a full size Confederate flag in the grocery store parking lot. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/7 "2016-12-10T13:14:27Z")
Well, Canada had a process of Confederation at that time… But, in the sense you meant, Southern Confederates had various dealings with the Great White North, ranging from small units escaping there to using parts of the Maritimes as bases, despite British disapproval; Canada accepted draft-dodgers and other escapees from America as much as runaway slaves. Even when a nation disapproves of another, it is sometimes prudent to give some support if that weakens a bigger threat. Canada had to protect its independence from America — if the Confederates pled with Canada’s governments to recognise/join with the CSA; that matched American complicity in the Fenian Invasion. Still most Canadian volunteers fought for the anti-slavery side. In the end, though, _some_ Canadians may now more than ever feel a romantic sympathy with the CSA’s bold stand for **FREEDOM** : also, both nations had a strong Scottish heritage with shared values; also both political traditions were dominated by prosy 19th century constitutionalist babblers who could bore non-stop for days on end. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/8 "2016-12-10T14:47:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Not this year. No Confederate flags that I could see. > > Instead, he’s now got the Pride flag flying. 🙂 Interesting. Perhaps a change in management? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/9 "2016-12-10T18:01:36Z")
I usually think of it as a “fly-by-night” operation. I don’t think there’s much management… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/10 "2016-12-10T18:06:55Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > In the end, though, _some_ Canadians may now more than ever feel a romantic sympathy with the CSA’s bold stand for **FREEDOM** “Freedom” here being used as just another word for slavery?!? > [@](#): > > also, both nations had a strong Scottish heritage with shared values; The Scottish heritage in Canada often having a strong connection with liberalism and a rejection of aristocracy (e.g. Highland clearances) makes this argument in persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/11 "2016-12-10T18:26:01Z")
Maybe he sold out of them rather than no longer stocking them. ☹ Being from Michigan I can confirm that Canada has rednecks; including, but certainly not limited to, southern Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/12 "2016-12-10T18:46:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Freedom” here being used as just another word for slavery?!? Freedom generally means freedom to do what _one_ wishes, unconstrained by tyranny. And that includes owning people — as Calhoun, Locke, Jefferson, Fitzhugh, Alexander Stephens and other confederate theorists in the republican liberal tradition fully accepted. One might even say embraced. And this is in line with most of the aristocratic revolts against authority in Europe and elsewhere: they weren’t rebelling to put serfs in charge. > [@](#): > > The Scottish heritage in Canada often having a strong connection with liberalism and a rejection of aristocracy (e.g. Highland clearances) makes this argument in persuasive. As did the Irish heritage in America. Scots and Irish both volunteered for the CSA, and the poor old KKK types \* loved them some Scottish heritage. \*Poor old because they are as big a threat as highwaymen and bandits by now. Just husks defeated by Hoover. And they were cretins. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/13 "2016-12-10T23:29:22Z")
Mackinaw City, MI, about as far away from the south as you can get without crossing water, in their touristy shops, had all sorts of stuff with the Confederate Flag on it this past summer. hats, shirts, etc. I never noticed such in past years. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/14 "2016-12-11T00:31:21Z")
Actually I just came across: **[The Southern Conservative Thought of John C. Calhoun and the Cultural Foundations of the Canadian Identity](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02722011.2013.819584?src=recsys&)** from the American Review of Canadian Studies, one of those needs access deals How can one resist the abstract: _Besides the largely ignored fact of general Canadian support for the Southern Confederacy during the American Civil War, the consociational dimensions of Canadian Confederation, as something opposed to American unionism in cultural terms, finds its historical roots legitimized in the Southern conservative writings of John C. Calhoun. It is the tension between an institutionally entrenched foundation of consociational pluralism and growing urban cosmopolitanism within Canadian history that has defined the debates and divides over the meaning of the Canadian identity, just as it is. Alternatively it is the tension between enforced constitutionalist unionism and consociational cultural tradition within the American South that has largely defined their historical experience. Both Canada and the American South find the tensions of their cultural identities rooted in the consociational values originally laid out by nineteenth century Southern conservative political thought._ AcademicSpeak has reached the level of Marxist Philosophical Jargon. And Calhoun wanted killing as a baby. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/15 "2016-12-11T01:05:07Z")
Hi Neighbour, Another queen city kid checking in. Agriculture is less important in Saskatchewan than it once was but it is still a big part of the province. Many of us are only a generation or less from the farm. I won’t stereotype the people of rural Saskatchewan–every political view is represented–but there is still a lot of room for that good old redneck social conservatism that isn’t a lot different from the rural US south. The rebel flag fits right in. Support for actual slavery might be lukewarm among this crowd but, in general, the rural conservatives here are not above hating people of other races. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/16 "2016-12-11T01:08:44Z")
**Evan** , it seems to me that you may be overthinking this. The Canadians I’ve known who constitute a market for Confederate battle flag memorabilia (flags, belt buckles, license plates, etc.) don’t know very much about the CSA or the US Civil War. Remember, Canadian high schools typically don’t teach US history, so they’d have a hard time identifying the issues behind the conflict, never mind reasons such as you are discussing. So why do they want this stuff? Simple. As one friend who bought a Confederate flag to put in the back window of his pickup truck said, “I’m a rebel.” He didn’t mean he sympathized with the CSA or was pro-slavery or had some Scottish notion of “Freedom!” He just saw himself as a non-conformist, and if you had asked him what he was rebelling against, he’d likely answer similarly to James Dean: “Whaddaya got?” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/17 "2016-12-11T01:54:54Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > …But, in the sense you meant, Southern Confederates had various dealings with the Great White North, ranging from small units escaping there to using parts of the Maritimes as bases, despite British disapproval… Never read of any “small units escaping there” or Confederates “using parts of the Maritimes as bases” (although blockade runners sometimes put in there). This best-known and notorious cross-border raid was launched from Canada East, the current south Quebec: [St. Albans Raid - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Albans_Raid) > [@Spoons](#): > > …As one friend who bought a Confederate flag to put in the back window of his pickup truck said, “I’m a rebel.” He didn’t mean he sympathized with the CSA or was pro-slavery or had some Scottish notion of “Freedom!” He just saw himself as a non-conformist, and if you had asked him what he was rebelling against, he’d likely answer similarly to James Dean: “Whaddaya got?” Exactly. I’ve heard several rural Northerners, born and raised far from the former Confederacy, say much the same over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/18 "2016-12-11T03:37:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Never read of any “small units escaping there” or Confederates “using parts of the Maritimes as bases” (although blockade runners sometimes put in there). This best-known and notorious cross-border raid was launched from Canada East, the current south Quebec: [St. Albans Raid - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Albans_Raid) From that link to another: \*Because of Canada’s location and sympathy for the Southern cause, Confederate operators secretly used Canada as a base, in violation of British neutrality, particularly in the Maritimes. The Maritimes’ struggle to maintain its independence from Canada led some Maritimers to be sympathetic to the South’s desire to maintain its independence from the North. For example, Halifax merchant Benjamin Wier (1805–1868) acted as Halifax agent for many of the Confederate blockade runners active during the Civil War. In return for ship repair facilities in Halifax, the Confederates supplied him with valuable cotton for re-export to Britain, a lucrative but hazardous course for Wier which required severing his business connections with New England. \* > **[Canada and the American Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_American_Civil_War)** > > At the time of the American Civil War (1861–1865), Canada did not yet exist as a federated nation. Instead, British North America consisted of the Province of Canada (parts of modern southern Ontario and southern Quebec) and the separate colonies of Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, British Columbia and Vancouver Island, as well as a crown territory administered by the Hudson's Bay Company called Rupert's Land. Britain and its colonies were officially neutral fo... Of course in the War of 1812 it was the New Englanders who helped the British and toyed with secession, and the southerners who were hot to trot. As for units escaping there I remember it may have been mentioned in Amanda Foreman’s **A World on Fire** [Brit - US relations during the War of Secession, rather marred by her predilection for the Union] and perhaps in a book on some doctor Cronin murdered in Chicago by fellow Fenians from the remarkably rascally **Clan na Gael** [Their turpitude was grimly amusing in a dark Victorian way, but that’s something else again] for just a couple of sources. Anyway, given the choice of sailing across to Canada or free lodging at Elmira, the choice was clear. > [@](#): > > Exactly. I’ve heard several rural Northerners, born and raised far from the former Confederacy, say much the same over the years. In one of O Henry’s — a good old Reb himself — stories he remarked something like the fellow leaping to his feet and crying when the restaurant orchestra played ‘Dixie’ was the chap who’d never been south of… — dammit I’ve _found_ it whilst typing: \*“Pardon me,” I said, "but my curiosity was not altogether an idle one. I know the South, and when the band plays ‘Dixie’ I like to observe. I have formed the belief that the man who applauds that air with special violence and ostensible sectional loyalty is invariably a native of either Secaucus, N.J., or the district between Murray Hill Lyceum and the Harlem River, this city. \* [The Four Million](http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/131/the-four-million/2389/a-cosmopolite-in-a-cafe/) ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/19 "2016-12-11T13:29:42Z")
The new confederate flag is now a Russian flag… ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329/20 "2016-12-11T14:28:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Exactly. I’ve heard several rural Northerners, born and raised far from the former Confederacy, say much the same over the years. Heck, here in Puerto Rico I have seen folk using the CBF, I must presume as some sort of daft statement about how radically rebel-american they are. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winds-of-change-flag-department/774329.md?page=2)