# Wine from Store-bought Grapes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050 "2008-09-17T21:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/21 "2008-09-18T16:44:40Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > I’m a food snob but not a wine snob, so I’ve never run across the term “foxy” as applied to wine (to women, yes, but…) Can some oenophile explain in less esoteric terms what foxiness is? > > Also, if you wanted to have a wine with the flavor of concord grapes but that was less sickeningly sweet than Mogen David, couldn’t you blend them with other, drier grapes? The easiest way for me to describe foxiness is the taste of Welch’s grape juice or grape jelly. That sweet, sort of musky concord grape flavor. You wouldn’t get a less sweet wine by blending in another varietal for wines like Mogen David and Manischewitz because they aren’t sweet because of the sugar content of the grapes. They’re sweet because they are sweetened with corn syrup or cane sugar \*after \*fermentation. (And in order for it to be labeled as concord wine, it’d have to be made of at least 75% concord grapes.) Concord grapes can be fermented dry like any other, but they still have that tell-tale foxiness that can sometimes be perceived as sweetness. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/22 "2008-09-18T16:46:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Some folks on the River Cottage forum were making ‘turbo cider’ with cartons of store-bought apple juice - I don’t see why the same thing couldn’t actually be done with grape juice - as long as adjustments were made for sugar content etc. [This](http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/) thread at [Homebrewtalk.com](http://Homebrewtalk.com) has a good recipe, using store bought apple juice. I’ve made it, along with many, many others. I prefer to get proper cider from an orchard during the fall, and generally make about 10 gallons for our drinking pleasure through the next year. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/23 "2008-09-18T16:53:43Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Several steps up are the wines put out by Bully Hill. Unfortunately most of their varieties aren’t available unless you live near them, and even in Massachusetts only a couple of their varieties are easy to get. They aren’t remotely as sweet as any of the above, and you might not realize you’re drinking Labrusca wine. Of course, as soon as you go over the border into NY, they have most of the varieties in their liquor stores… at least they did in Syracuse (I know, much closer to the vinyard). I miss traveling to Syracuse, as I’d usually come back with a case or two in the trunk. Sweet Walter, and Love My Goat are my favorites, I wish I could get more of them in NH, and I’d even tolerate a drive into MA to get it. From their web site ([http://www.bullyhill.com/distributors/distributors.asp](http://www.bullyhill.com/distributors/distributors.asp)) it does look as though nearly anything can be ordered… but you’d probably have to buy the case, unless your retailer is willing to add some of the case to their shelf. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/24 "2008-09-18T17:48:36Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I only know one person who makes homemade wine and, while year to year it’s variable, it’s _more_ than drinkable. His 2003 Zinfandel was a wine I’d happily drink every day. I know it’s not saying much, but it’s better than any “two buck Chuck” I’ve had from Trader Joe’s. We buy about $500-$700 worth of wine grapes every year, de-stem them, crush them with a grape press, and make a shitload of wine. IIRC, it’s something on the cusp of 200 bottles. Not bad for a basement in a suburb of Chicago (Oak Park). Come to think of it, we’re coming up on wine-making time. Fun times. I appreciate good wines. I’ve had my share of both bad and good homemade wine, and the most important factor has been the grapes. People who buy the rejects from vintners or god knows what from the grocery store typically make poor wine. Those who spend the money for very high quality grapes are capable of making very good wines at home, assuming they know what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![SharkB8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@SharkB8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharkB8)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/25 "2008-09-18T21:53:37Z")
So I guess finding wine made from Concord grapes is doable. As well as wines made from native vines or wines obtained from local vineyards, even if they are non-native species. But has anyone ever had, heard of, or made wine made from the long green grapes? I’m sorry, I’m not sure what they’re officially called. Or even the red seedless grapes. Those are pretty sweet, but from what you guys are saying, they’re still no where near as sweet as they’d need to be for a tolerable wine. I’ve never tasted a wine grape before, so I’m unsure on the comparison. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/26 "2008-09-18T22:34:41Z")
> [@SharkB8](#): > > So I guess finding wine made from Concord grapes is doable. As well as wines made from native vines or wines obtained from local vineyards, even if they are non-native species. > > But has anyone ever had, heard of, or made wine made from the long green grapes? I’m sorry, I’m not sure what they’re officially called. Or even the red seedless grapes. Those are pretty sweet, but from what you guys are saying, they’re still no where near as sweet as they’d need to be for a tolerable wine. I’ve never tasted a wine grape before, so I’m unsure on the comparison. You’re talking about Thompson Seedless. (And “Flame” Seedless for the red, I believe.) No, I don’t know of anyone who has tried before. And yes, wine grapes are thoroughly different in flavor/sweetness. If you can ever get a taste of some Gewurtztraminer grapes … yowzers. If wine wasn’t so good, it’d be almost criminal that people don’t eat these things. If you swing out to Millbrook Winery in NY (East of Poughkeepsie, only a few miles from the CT border) sometime next month, you could probably go see them doing the crush and ask to sample a grape or two. They probably do more varieties than anyone else in the Valley, and a fair bit of their fruit is from the company’s vineyards in California, so there’s some crazy-good-fruit coming in. (Be warned though: expect big seeds and tough skins for most varieties. Oh, yes–and lots of wasps in the air.) ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/27 "2008-09-18T22:37:43Z")
The long green grapes you see in stores are Thompson seedless, or occasionally Perlettes. I’ve never tasted a wine made from them, but you certainly could make some. You’d definitely have to add sugar and adjust the acid though. Wine grapes are much sweeter than table grapes, and they have more intense flavors. ---
**Author:** ![SharkB8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@SharkB8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharkB8)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/28 "2008-09-19T00:31:18Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Oh, yes–and lots of wasps in the air.) That’s a harsh generalization… They often find other things to do on a Saturday! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/29 "2008-09-19T00:52:19Z")
Wines made from North American species of grapes have been historically called “foxy” – a slight musky flavor and smell that just seems wrong to an oenophile. The story goes that people centuries ago didn’t know why the grapes were giving this flavor, so they assumed the foxes, badgers, skunks and other “weird” North American animals were transferring their muskiness to the ground, the plants, the people and their politics – whatever. Thomas Jefferson knew that the US could really boost it’s young economy if we could produce decent wine. But Europeans won’t drink Concord wine. And European varieties won’t grow in America – there is a parasitic nematode that European varieties can’t resist well. To this day, US vineyards are started with Concord grapes, and the varietal of choice is grafted onto healthy rootstock (or that’s done at the nursery and the completed graft is planted, or there are some somewhat resistant varieties being bred.) This is not trivial – that is not the traditional way, and Europeans don’t much care for non-traditional wine production. And that nematode is spreading through Europe, only small, isolated wineries are able to avoid it, so far. So they’re kinda stuck. At any rate, Jefferson tried a bunch of things to improve Concord wine – trying to age it better, trying to pair it with the proper (American) foodstuffs, trying to “sell” foxyness as the trendy thing of the day, or blending the wine with herbs. On that last point, let me share with you a recipe from my favorite winemaking site. [http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques10.asp](http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques10.asp) The recipes are easy to follow, and he explains the reasoning well on that page. But the whole site is a through treatment of the subject of home winemaking. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/30 "2008-09-19T02:06:31Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > To this day, US vineyards are started with Concord grapes, and the varietal of choice is grafted onto healthy rootstock (or that’s done at the nursery and the completed graft is planted, or there are some somewhat resistant varieties being bred.) This is not trivial – that is not the traditional way, and Europeans don’t much care for non-traditional wine production. And that nematode is spreading through Europe, only small, isolated wineries are able to avoid it, so far. So they’re kinda stuck. Legend has it… **Missouri** rootstock… [http://www.tower-rock-winery.com/shakeup.htm](http://www.tower-rock-winery.com/shakeup.htm) \*\* Phylloxera \*\*[Phylloxera - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera) tsfr ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/31 "2008-09-19T02:26:59Z")
> [@butler1850](#): > > [This](http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/) thread at [Homebrewtalk.com](http://Homebrewtalk.com) has a good recipe, using store bought apple juice. I’ve made it, along with many, many others. > > I prefer to get proper cider from an orchard during the fall, and generally make about 10 gallons for our drinking pleasure through the next year. I am currently about to give up on Cidermaking, as no matter what I do, I end up with watery, overly alchol-y tasting fluid. Very frustrating. Reading about Ed’s Apfelwein makes me jealous in a very real and annoying way. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/32 "2008-09-19T12:46:15Z")
> [@psycat90](#): > > The easiest way for me to describe foxiness is the taste of Welch’s grape juice or grape jelly. That sweet, sort of musky concord grape flavor. > > You wouldn’t get a less sweet wine by blending in another varietal for wines like Mogen David and Manischewitz because they aren’t sweet because of the sugar content of the grapes. They’re sweet because they are sweetened with corn syrup or cane sugar \*after \*fermentation. (And in order for it to be labeled as concord wine, it’d have to be made of at least 75% concord grapes.) > > Concord grapes can be fermented dry like any other, but they still have that tell-tale foxiness that can sometimes be perceived as sweetness. …Corn syrup? REALLY? That is so wrong. Maybe I’m more of a wine snob than I thought. What about doing what **ludovic** suggested and blending two finished wines yourself – in effect, making (sort of) your own cold duck? ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/33 "2008-09-19T13:39:38Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I am currently about to give up on Cidermaking, as no matter what I do, I end up with watery, overly alchol-y tasting fluid. Very frustrating. > > Reading about Ed’s Apfelwein makes me jealous in a very real and annoying way. Trust me, follow his recipe. It works… though I add 1 lb of lactose at bottling (carb with 4-6oz of corn sugar depending on your ‘fizz preference’). It sweetens it up, and the carbonation adds some mouth feel. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050/34 "2008-09-19T19:46:59Z")
> [@SharkB8](#): > > That’s a harsh generalization… > > They often find other things to do on a Saturday! 😉 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-from-store-bought-grapes/464050.md?page=1)