# Wine Tasting is Bullshit: Film at 11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 24, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662 "2013-11-24T04:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/201 "2013-12-03T23:41:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then, as mentioned, perhaps you could cite a few of the other numerous examples of blind tastings where master sommeliers could identify a wine with the kind of accuracy you claim. Because there haven’t been any in this thread… Am I on “Ignore”? Go look at the World Wine Tasting Championship link I had in one of my replies to this thread. Or better yet, google it. See how close and precise the winners could get to the mystery wines poured to them. I remember reading the results and thinking that the Professional division tasters, like [Mark Bowery](http://www.albionriverinn.com/mark-bowery-bio.php), could be absolutely ridiculous at times. It’s a parlor trick, and it helps when you’re in the biz, and consequently, have an opportunity to have smelled that particular wine before. I think I also mentioned the qualification exams for the [Master of Wine](http://www.mastersofwine.org/en/education/the-mw-examination/index.cfm) certification. Blind tasting and evaluating region, grape, and vintage is one of the requirements. [Here](http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/a20130617.html)’s the 2013 Exam with the wines that were blind-tasted. A quote from Jancis Robinson, MW, on the difficulty of identifying white wine varieties: > [@](#): > > Several students I spoke with found the tasting paper on white wines, which is the very first exam of the week, especially tough. It is certainly not a kind paper, with precious few clues to glean from the structure of the questions. For example, when a pair of wines is introduced as from the ‘same country and region but different single grape varieties’ virtually no region can be ruled out. > > In this case, the wines look distinctive, on paper at least - they were a Riesling and a Chardonnay from Marlborough - but I know too well how difficult it can be to remain calm and identify wines effectively, especially without the safety net of a more specific stipulation within the question. Dry Riesling is easily mistaken for Sauvignon Blanc or Grüner Veltliner, for instance, and Chardonnay is notoriously shapeshifting. > > The rest of the paper was similarly tricky, including an Assyrtiko and a Gavi - both brave choices for an examinee to make when all you are told is they are from different countries and varieties. Or you could go look at sensory evaluation studies for wine in journals such as these listed [here](http://winegrapes.tamu.edu/research/journals.html). Have a gander at [this study](http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/8/747.long)’s attempts to compare wine experts’ olfactory sensitivity and memory to that of novices. The sample size is really small, but the listed references are a decent place to start looking for other studies in the field. Hodgson’s multiple studies tell us that wine competitions, like state fairs, aren’t very consistent for evaluating quality. I tend to agree, for reasons I’ve already listed. As to the flavors and aromas, a helpful way to start to narrow down exactly what you’re smelling is to use something like an [aroma wheel](http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/wine-topics/wine-educational-questions/davis-aroma-wheel/). Many wine tasting courses will start with identifying different tastes (bitter, sweet, sour—salt shouldn’t come up.) via the use of reference standards. Like a measured amount of white vinegar in water. [Odor kits](http://www.nezduvin.co.uk/) can be useful for recognizing different aromas. In short, I think that the precision of wine tasting ratings is way overstated. But I do think it’s better than a purely random guess. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/202 "2013-12-04T00:49:01Z")
Thanks to Gray Ghost for some good examples. Some people just take such glee in thinking they’ve gored someone’s ox. It’s like a kind of fantasy schadenfreude. Hah! I’ve ruined your fun! Take that! … Anyway, Shodan, there are wine tastings happening all over everywhere all the time. If you’re legitimately interested in observing for yourself the skill of the best tasters in the world, it’s not hard to find these events and see for yourself. Keep in mind though that I’ve said all along that wine tasting is as much art as science. And, as I hope is obvious, for someone to guess which vineyard, etc., a wine is, they would have to know that wine pretty darn well from previous experience, otherwise of course you can’t guess that kind of detail. It’s possible (easily possible) to have wine tastings where the taster is acquainted with none of the wines involved and that means the best result is guessing varietals and region. There absolutely are real skills involved, but the subject is crazy, enormously complex. As I said upthread, there are literally hundreds of compounds in wine that affect its flavor. I think the only people who have actually overstated the alleged precision of wine tasting are those people who are creating strawmen to knock over, as if any human sense can have the precision of scientific equipment. In my experience, the actual degree of precision (i.e. that it is as much art as science and there’s nothing like “perfect pitch” regarding tasting) is not a secret at all but widely known. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/203 "2013-12-05T16:10:03Z")
For some reason I missed those cites. Thanks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![bermboston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d2c977/32.png) [@bermboston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bermboston)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/204 "2013-12-05T20:12:09Z")
As a sommelier I may have a different view…but I do think we’ve alienated every day drinkers with some of the terms and behavior used… [bermboston@gmail.com](mailto:bermboston@gmail.com) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/205 "2013-12-05T22:02:25Z")
> [@bermboston](#): > > As a sommelier I may have a different view…but I do think we’ve alienated every day drinkers with some of the terms and behavior used… > [bermboston@gmail.com](mailto:bermboston@gmail.com) Fairly stated. I don’t disagree that wine could be made much more approachable and mainstream. There are many very interesting inexpensive wines, and wine as a hobby can be enjoyed by anyone! It certainly need not be the playground the rich and snobby. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/206 "2013-12-05T22:36:51Z")
I think the alienation comes from the supposed elitism of wine connoisseurs that wine is this refined drink that only the sophisticated can appreciate. Its a drink that tastes different than another drink, that’s all it is. It may be harder to make than Pepsi, but I prefer Pepsi over wine any day, with any meal. And it doesn’t help that a lot of it is astronomical in price, pricing the common folks like me out of it. When only emperors can afford it, then the rest of us are going to be gleeful if we get to point out he’s got no clothes on ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/207 "2013-12-05T23:20:05Z")
I agree with the sommelier, **bermboston**. This stuff is way more complicated than it really needs to be. It’s fermented grape juice, for Chrissake. Treat it as an adult scratch n’ sniff. Hence the aroma wheel. A lot of wine is way too expensive. (OTOH, if they sell out of their production at that price every year, I guess it’s priced right.) So much of it reminds me of nothing so much as Beanie Babies or Veblen’s writings made real. For many wines though, there just isn’t that much of it, and there are a whole lot of people that want it. The ‘just isn’t that much of it’ ties into the idea that you can make meaningful distinctions between wines. If you actually can’t, then there’s no point in bothering to distinguish between different vineyards, and we should just go ahead and bottle everything by variety and country, maybe region at the narrowest. Vineyard-designated wine though is going to go for a whole lot more money than region-designated wine, as anyone who’s tried shopping for Burgundy can tell you. So, tying into what **YogSosoth** wrote, there’s a bit of incentive for the Emperor’s purveyors to try and keep his clothes on. If you like it, it’s good, and don’t let anyone tell you differently. If you don’t like it, it’s not good. For you, though reasonable people may differ. I can’t stand Grüner Veltliner (all of them taste like canned green beans to me), but plenty of people rave about it. Fine, more for them. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/208 "2013-12-06T00:07:40Z")
I’m going to share a link to an article written by an old friend of mine that I used to work with at the same place’s website where the article is derived from. This guy Tim is extremely knowledgeable about wines and this article is short, concise and right on point. Please read it. [https://www.thepartysource.com/wine\_education\_view.php?article=00042](https://www.thepartysource.com/wine_education_view.php?article=00042) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/209 "2013-12-06T02:35:48Z")
I just KNEW when I came back into this thread I would kill it! Damn! I ignored it for too long and was too snarky in my responses early on and now I fear I have made it die… ☹ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/210 "2013-12-06T05:56:35Z")
Let it breathe, FGIE. The thread was kinda’ dead before the sommelier showed up, but by all means chime in 🙂 Nice essay you linked to; I agree with a lot of what was written. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/211 "2013-12-06T11:16:11Z")
The Sommelier! I am now picturing a mysterious figure, swinging into action where ever wine is being poorly treated, armed only with his vast knowledge, trained palate, and his golden tastevin! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Surb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Surb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Surb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/212 "2013-12-06T12:10:25Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Ok, now I know for sure that you’re not worth talking to. > [@Knorf](#): > > It certainly need not be the playground the rich and snobby. I Wonder why some people think it is? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/213 "2013-12-06T15:18:12Z")
> [@The\_Surb](#): > > I Wonder why some people think it is? You made very nasty statements, coming very close to directly and personally insulting me for pointing out that noticing tobacco in some wines (for example, certain Syrahs from the Walla Walla AVA) is actually quite common. In any case, I am a wine _consumer_, not a professional. I do not make, produce, write about, blog about, or work in a restaurant or any part of the wine industry. This thread is the first time I’ve ever written about wine. And, other than dismissing your contributions, which I stand by, since they were insulting and obtuse, I don’t think anything I wrote is snobby in the least. On the contrary, I’m an advocate for the accessibility of wine and transparency in critiquing it! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662/214 "2013-12-06T15:30:40Z")
A lot of the criticism I hear of modern wine tasting is not that it’s for the rich and snobby, but rather for the upper middle class and striving. I think that’s were a lot of the posing come in, marketing wine to people who want to be rich and snobby, but are actually insecure in their station. That’s why there is so much glee in the emperor’s new clothes moments like mentioned in the OP. I like wine, I like good beer, and I really like good whiskey. I can talk about all of those without sounding like I desperately wished I hadn’t gone to a state university. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wine-tasting-is-bullshit-film-at-11/674662.md?page=10)