Wine Tasting is Bullshit: Film at 11

The OP’s link does not “prove” that wine tasting is rubbish. What it proves is that you can trick people, even experts, by fucking with their expectations. That’s not news. It’s also not science.

Master sommeliers and wine makers take their craft very seriously, devoting untold hours of study and practice to refining their skills, which are real. A real master somm—under fair conditions, blind tasting yes but without infantile trickery like dying white wine red—can identify varietal, region, and yes even sometimes winery and vintage of wine from anywhere in the world; not 100% by any means by to a degree of accuracy that would astonish you.

I’m friends with several professional wine makers, and I sometimes test them for fun by asking them to ID what’s in my glass, from a reasonably limited subset (e.g. I’ll tell them it’s a Bordeaux blend from the Columbia Valley AVA). They usually can tell me completely accurately which varietal it is purely from looking at it, judging color and viscosity, and smelling it. They often can also tell me exactly what winery or (more likely for winemakers) or vineyard it came from.

The ability to do this is real.

I myself have occasionally been able to identify correctly the varietals in a red blend, and identify (for example) things like Rhône versus Bordeux, in blind testing. I definitely can’t do it anything like 100% of the time, though. The reason is simple, and the same reason why experts can be confused: the complex results from fermented grapes of even single varietal from a single block from a single vineyard can have remarkably wide range. “Wine is weird.” There are hundreds of compounds in wine that affect its taste.

But here’s the thing: this isn’t news. Any real professional or genuine oenophile knows this. It is well-known, and perfectly above board, that there is as much or more art to wine-making as there is science. And this is, in fact, a good thing! More on that later.

The OP’s link doesn’t prove things such as people can’t tell white wine from red wine. Of course you can. My guess is if the people being tested had been told in advance of just the mere possibility of tricks—such as the several glasses in a row of the same wine, or the dyed white wine—you would have seen some very different results.

What does the OP link prove? That you can trick people by fucking with their expectations. That the power of suggestion is real. That people judge by appearances. Even experts. Here’s the thing: you can do this with anything that involves human senses.

Big fucking deal.

People judge books by their covers. People judge character by how pretty a face is, or how nice the person’s clothes are. People judge the quality of the taste of fruit by all kinds of things that have little or nothing to do with how fresh it actually is. People judge how good food tastes by its presentation. The power of suggestion can radically alter anyone’s perception of something they are eating.

Tell a group of people that what they’re eating contains MSG, even if it doesn’t. Tell them that MSG has been scientifically linked to bowel irritation and migraines (false! this isn’t true!) See what happens. You know what would happen. A lot of people would suddenly be complaining about upset stomachs and headaches.

Yes, people judge wine by its presentation. And its cost. And how nice the label is. And whether the person serving the wine is attractive. And whether the setting where they are consuming the wine is beautiful. And whether they’re feeling happy or sad that day. And on any number of random things that may or may not have anything to do with the actual chemical makeup of the wine.

Again I say: bug fucking deal.

Oenophiles know this. I know it. Wine makes know it. Master sommeliers know it.

I know that all the things I listed above—and I can add to the list things like what I had for breakfast, whether I brushed my teeth or not, or who the fuck knows what else—all influence my perception of the taste of wine.

It’s a big part of the fun. And that’s not a secret. Wine is fun: it’s mysterious and strange and enjoying it happens more with the imagination than any rational, intellectually sound chemical analysis. If you want only the latter, go drink cheap vodka.

The imagination and irrationality of wine (again, this perfectly above board and well known to any real oenophile or professional in the industry) mean that yes, it might be possible that I could be tricked, or even scammed. You could, theoretically, set up a beautiful tasting room, hire gorgeous yet knowledgeable people to be servers, dress up shabby cheap wine in elegantly labelled bottles with descriptions as purple and fruity as any snob with a wild imagination could compose, and be able to scam a few people by charging ludicrous prices for it. Maybe you’d be able to scam me. Maybe even experts. But not for long. You would be found out.

If I’m wrong, I challenge one of the “skeptics” in this thread to prove it. Make a profit for a single year, doing as I describe above. Let us know how it goes. You won’t succeed.

Part of the reason you won’t succeed is that in order to establish those prices you would need to establish literally decades of credibility. Good luck doing that without putting in some truly, insanely hard work.

So the final question. Cost is separate from the chemicals in wine. If it affects how one perceives wine, does that invalidate the whole profession? Of course not.

My brain processes what I’m tasting. The brain uses a lot of information, some of it very useful, like smell and appearance, and some more irrational, like how much it costs, to come up with whether I enjoy the taste of the wine. If cost is part of the equation, does that invalidate my enjoyment? Absolutely not. If my brain says I’m enjoying this wine, then I’m enjoying it. Period.

It’s useful to be aware of the possibility of scams. There are con men out there. Some perhaps even using wine. But in general, the overwhelmingly majority of wine that is very expensive is so because of decades, or even centuries, of establishing credibility, consistency, complexity.

People who haven’t developed their palates might not be able to tell. People have developed their palates might still be scammable, perhaps by people posing as scientists running tests full of trickery. The world is built on trust, sadly some people abuse it.

But wine tasting is not BS.

I have tasted wine in (at least) Napa, Sonoma, Placer, and Santa Clara(?or nearby) counties, and spitting has never been recommended or discussed (and I certainly didn’t!). There may have been a “spittoon” nearby (I’m sure there’s a classier, more French name), but I never cared or noticed. If a place asks me to spit it out, then I certainly am’n’t buying, and I can’t really get the full taste then anyway.

So the point I’m getting from your lengthy paragraph is that I have to spend years piling up a lot of bullshit before I’m taken seriously as a wine taster?

Somebody’s Grand Cru ox has been gored.

In order for me to answer that question, you would have to first demonstrate that Robert Parker does, indeed, have a “supernatural palate” and, more importantly, that his “supernatural palate” can actually evaluate wines in a consistent and objective manner independent of criteria such as price.

Robert Parker doesn’t taste wine. Wine taste Robert Parker.

Knorph, nobody here is disputing that there is such a thing as a wine expert. It’s the relentlessly idiotic ecosystem of wine writing and reviewing that people find idiotic. Because it is.

I tend to take any food/drink ratings with a grain of salt, including Consumer Reports reviews of food products. One’s expectations based on packaging and reputation seem to highly affect perceived quality, and while there may be certain people who get it right at least some of the time, their reliability over an extended period is open to question. And whether or not it’s “infantile trickery”, actual wine experts should easily be able to tell the difference between red wine and white wine that’s been dyed red. If they can’t, why on earth would anyone trust them and pay $100 for a bottle of wine instead of $10?

“Responsiveness” matters zilch to the audience.

Bullshit. I reserve the right to call bullshit on ANYONE that tells me they can taste leather and tobacco in a glass of wine. Right :rolleyes:

I was going to type out a lengthy reply, but yours came first and I concur wholeheartedly.

I can’t really add to this other than to say to those that consider the world of wine interpretation, which is indeed overly complicated, to go fuck yourselves if you cannot grok the benefit of a trained and knowledgeable person in your life to guide you into wise choices.

Also…most wine professionals SPIT into buckets when analyzing wine. Forget the whole “Weeeeee,we’re buzzed, it’s alcohol, it’s ALL good!” angle as well.

I find some of your opinions downright offensive, to be honest. It’s like the study of anything else.

SO very, very wrong you are. And if you cared enough, you’d detect those notes in a wine too. Stop drinking wine from a box.

There’s a real profession here, with real skills. If you can’t see that, the problem is you.

No oxen have been harmed in the slightest by the OP, or any of the drivel gleefully spouted by “skeptics” in this thread, I assure you.

No one claims there is actual leather or tobacco in wine. But wine is factually made up of dozens or even hundreds of chemical compounds that affect taste. Language has some specific words to describe flavor, such as “fruity,” “tannic,” and so on that are very real things. Such words are commonly used, and rightly so, without objection I would think.

The more metaphoric descriptors for wine (e.g. “leather,” “tobacco,” “peppery”) are not literally there (no one thinks that) but come from an attempt to connect the many sometimes ephemeral, sometimes bold, but odd tastes in wine with other flavors that resemble them. Leather and tobacco notes are quite common in certain red wines, and are absolutely appropriate as poetic approximations of what some of the flavors in wine resemble. I could name several bottles of wine, that, if you opened them, poured them, smelled the bouquet and tasted with something approaching an open mind, you would not miss something that was very, very like tobacco. Tobacco and leather are easy.

Everyone’s palate is different. What one taster tastes in the wine, and tries to connect descriptively to something similar, might be anywhere from slightly to very different from what another person tastes.

Everyone who knows anything about wine knows these things. The tasting notes are a guide to help people find wine that suits them when they start to figure out what they like.

All your emphatic “bullshit” statement reveals is your lack of understanding or experience with the subject.

The word “study” implies a degree of intellectual honesty and academic rigor. It’s been proven repeatedly that wine writers lack both. Again, there is a difference between somebody who simply knows a lot about wine (which is great) and somebody who purports to engage in quantifiable and objective measurements using their tongue, which is bullshit. Every time somebody brings the least bit of scientific method into the process, it is clear that the conclusions reached by wine reviewers are entirely based in confirmation bias.

Shows what you know. There are some superb, award-winning wines that come in boxes (the preferred term is “cask,” by the way. :stuck_out_tongue: ) The plastic seal preserves freshness better than corks or even plastic bottle caps, too.

Of course, if you actually knew anything about wine, you’d know not to judge a wine by its container. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the business of wine promotion are concerned more with looks than taste.

I love how the wine tasting defenders showed up and didn’t actually dismiss any of the criticisms, but just said “oh well you can trick anyone.”

Nope, sorry. The whole point of being an expert who supposedly gives objective reviews is that you shouldn’t be able to be tricked, if what you’re doing is truly objective.

And it’s not even like any of these were super tricky. I mean, switching the labels on a cheap wine and an expensive wine, and the “objective” reviewers are tricked into giving a cheap wine the better reviews? That absolutely 100% proves wine tasting is bullshit. It’s not even a trick. It’s a test and they fail it. And every new novel test that comes up they fail it too.

Wine tasting is bull shit to the extreme.

No…beer snobs are worse than wine snobs.

Wine snobs are tolerable sometimes, because wine can be classy and formal…

Beer makes you piss and fart.
You can’t pretend that it’s classy, so shuttup already and just gimme another can from the fridge.

I think for some people the takeaway here would be the “all wines taste the same” which is, of course, as much bullshit as pretentious wine tasting is.

But just tasting various wines, to find ones that you like the taste of, that’s not bullshit.

Oh absolutely. I’m one of the biggest “wine tasting is bullshit” proponents here but I would never say that wine all tastes the same, or that all red and white wines are exactly the same, etc. I’ve gone and tasted a fair amount of wine. I’m no expert but I have done tours and wine tastings. I know there are some wines I like, most I can’t stand, and maybe one in fifty I would say I actually enjoy. And I can definitely taste different flavors amongst the different wines.

I followed the link in the OP which links to the paper that uses white wine with red food coloring which is anything but clear. First, the paper discusses “subjects” rather than experts so I’ve no idea what the background of these folks are. Second, from the text or table I can’t figure out what actually was done.

“To test this hypothesis we elaborated the following experimental schema: 54 subjects were invited to a series of two experiments in which they had to comparatively describe a real red wine and a real white wine. Some days later the same subjects had to comparatively describe, in their own words, the same white wine and a red-coloured white wine. The neutrality, from an olfactory and gustative point of view, of the colouring was controlled during another test. What the subjects see during the first as in the second experiment is a glass of white wine and a glass of red wine. What in fact is in the glasses during the first experiment a glass of red wine and a glass of white wine whereas during the second there were two glasses of identical white wine, except from the point of view of colour. In question was the perception of the subjects. The results are presented in the following figure.”

Some brands of beer taste like puke. Avoiding these is an important skill.

I would make an exception for breathing fire.