# Wing walker plane crashes at air show
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [June 22, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643 "2013-06-22T18:08:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/21 "2013-06-23T02:24:25Z")
I freezed framed the video. Presuming I wasn’t fooled by shadows and other optical delusions, it look like to me the right/left aileron was deflected upwards/downwards, as it started going down.
Speculation on my part, but it looked like control input error to me.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/22 "2013-06-23T02:31:58Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#):
>
> I freezed framed the video. Presuming I wasn’t fooled by shadows and other optical delusions, it look like to me the right/left aileron was deflected upwards/downwards, as it started going down.
> Speculation on my part, but it looked like control input error to me.
Perhaps an erroneously executed attempt to pull out of the inverted flight early – upon realization that the inversion was entered either too low, too slow, or both?
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### Author:  [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/23 "2013-06-23T02:35:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#):
>
> Could be, but then the question becomes “what were they doing flying so close to the stall?” There’s no reason to be flying that slowly. From the commentary on the video of a successful routine their normal entry speed prior to rolling inverted is 150 mph. That should be heaps of speed to do what they were doing. If they were slower, why?
Pilot may simply have fouled up. It happens.
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#):
>
> On the subject of ground level aerobatics, I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that provided you follow some very simple energy management rules. If you are slow, be high, if you are going to be low then be fast. If you are doing vertical recovery to ground level such as ground level loops then do the majority of the high g recovery while you are still up high such that the bottom part of the loop is simply flying back down to ground level in a controlled way. You can do that in high performance aeroplanes but not so much in low performance ones.
That’s all true, of course. But again, the airshow guys I know are adamant that ground level acro causes fatalities. Deaths that might be avoided a little higer up. Of course, they accept that risk. But I suspect some of them wouldn’t mind a change in the paradigm, and I’m saying as a spectator I’d be fine with that. These accidents always horrify me and I feel many of them need not happen.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/24 "2013-06-23T02:36:08Z")
I can’t see that myself, the footage is too blurry, but maybe I haven’t managed to stop it at the right frame. Anyway, it doesn’t necessarily mean input error it might just be a matter of doing the right thing too late.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/25 "2013-06-23T02:48:15Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#):
>
> Pilot may simply have fouled up. It happens.
An unsatisfying answer though. I’ve done plenty of aerobatics, about 2000 routines I think, and I don’t recall ever just randomly making a mistake like that. The only times something has gone wrong or something unexpected has happened has been when I’ve been trying something new. They weren’t doing something new. It was something they’ve presumably done many times before. Of course, up to the point he crashed he may well have been able to say the same thing.
I could maybe see the pressure of performing causing him to continue with that part of the routine when he just didn’t have the numbers to make it work. Unfortunately we will never know what he was thinking at the time.
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### Author:  [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/26 "2013-06-23T02:48:45Z")
The video resolution and overcast makes it hard to see, for sure. And the head of the spectator along with the plane moving out of the video frame just before the impact, make it difficult to see whether an attempt was made to reverse the control inputs occurred at all.
But will I defer to the NTSB for far more credible evidence and conclusions.
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### Author:  [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/27 "2013-06-23T03:08:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> The amount of information that can be gleaned from the video is limited, but to me it looks like neither wind shear nor mechanical failure. It looks like a sudden control input of the wrong sort. In other words: pilot error. That sort of flying leaves little margin for error and if you aren’t perfect you’re likely dead.
>
> Of course, subject to change with the receipt of more information.
Given the abruptness of the roll, I can’t rule out mechanical failure, but I think he zigged when he meant to zag. You work on this, you concentrate on this, you obsess about this, but sometimes, you just push the wrong way. His altitude left no room for correction.
Ducati
Pilot/aerobatic pilot
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/28 "2013-06-23T03:15:29Z")
> [@ducati](#):
>
> Given the abruptness of the roll, I can’t rule out mechanical failure, but I think he zigged when he meant to zag. You work on this, you concentrate on this, you obsess about this, but sometimes, you just push the wrong way. His altitude left no room for correction.
Do you really though? Do you really just push the wrong way? Do you ever turn the steering wheel the wrong way in car? Have you rolled the wrong way when you’ve been flying? I think it was going wrong a long time before the final roll and that the final roll was entirely intentional, just too late. But that is just speculation.
I think I find errors of judgement much more understandable/believable than hand/eye coordination errors.
Edit: He would still have crashed if he’d rolled the other way.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/29 "2013-06-23T03:48:38Z")
For those of you who didn’t recognize the Waldo Pepper reference:
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMCuE-kiU7M)
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/30 "2013-06-23T15:50:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> It didn’t look like a stall to me. Granted, stalls can be very sedate, gentle things but Stearman bipes aren’t known for their gentle stall characteristics. Not impossible, but the angle we see the plane in the video, from the front, can make for deceptive perception of speed.
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#):
>
> It looks to me like they don’t quite get fully inverted before what looks like an intentional escape manoeuvre with insufficient height to recover.
IANA accident investigator.
The nose comes up a little, just before the pilot loses control. To me, that suggests a possible stall. If the aircraft was flying close to its stall speed, that little nose-up may have been enough.
Normal stall recovery is to put the nose down. I thought the pilot might have tried to add power. Most American propellers turn clockwise, as viewed from the cockpit. If the engine is turning that way, then torque would make the airframe turn the other way. It does not appear to me that this happened. To me, it looks like the port wing lost lift.
I’m guessing that the left wing stalled. I make no guesses as to whether it was caused by pilot error, a mechanical problem, or something else. Perhaps someone will notice the NTSB report when it comes out in a year, and post the conclusions here.
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### Author:  [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/31 "2013-06-24T21:52:12Z")
The final fatal pass seems to be downwind. Could the pilot have been flying the plane from perceived ground speed instead of actual airspeed? His last turn appears to be slow and close compared the video from a previous performance. Low, slow, and inverted, not good. I hope the NTSB findings can show the cause and the prevention to this tragic accident.
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### Author:  [@Enigma42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enigma42)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/32 "2013-06-24T21:58:14Z")
My wife and I very nearly took our kids to the airshow that day. The only reason we didn’t was that our daughter doesn’t tolerate heat very well and we thought it might be uncomfortable for her. I’m sure my son wouldn’ve loved to see all the aircraft.
Wow, am I glad we skipped it now. . .I would’ve hated to see this crash happen in person, and especially for our kids to have seen it. The discussion of the cause of the crash is interesting, but I’m not going to watch the video myself. I don’t know enough about these types of planes to glean any real information from it, and I think it would just upset me to see it play out. We’re very sad for the family of the performers.
My whole family loves aviation and airshows, but the potential for an accident always sort of looms in my mind. I could definitely get behind the idea of higher altitude shows if that increases safety. The show is thrilling enough when everything goes exactly as planned and especially when no one gets hurt.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/33 "2013-06-25T13:56:54Z")
Another possibility that I wonder about is the pilot’s health. Shoulder pain might make a control input a little less precise than usual, or something else might momentarily confuse or stun a pilot. He was 64, as I recall.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/34 "2013-07-04T19:22:57Z")
A couple reports are out:
NTSB prelimary report:
[http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/montgomery/ntsb-releases-air-show-crash-report](http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/montgomery/ntsb-releases-air-show-crash-report)
Ohio Highway patrol report considers it to be pilot error:
[http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/02/usa-crash-ohio-idUSL2N0F81IJ20130702](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/02/usa-crash-ohio-idUSL2N0F81IJ20130702)
Anyone know how to find the exact text of the patrol report?
I personally think either pilot’s health problems or mechanical problems are more likely.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/35 "2013-07-04T19:37:48Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> A couple reports are out:
> NTSB prelimary report:
> [http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/montgomery/ntsb-releases-air-show-crash-report](http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/montgomery/ntsb-releases-air-show-crash-report)
> [@](#):
>
> [T]he airplane’s nose pitched slightly above the horizon. The airplane abruptly rolled to the right and impacted terrain in a descending left-wing-low attitude.
Sounds like a stall. (Looked like a stall on the video.)
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> Ohio Highway patrol report considers it to be pilot error:
> ['Pilot error' caused Ohio air show tragedy -police report | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/02/usa-crash-ohio-idUSL2N0F81IJ20130702)
If it was indeed a stall, I’d call it pilot error. I think it’s too early for the OHP to come out with a definitive statement. Statistically, pilot error is the most likely cause. But it still could have been something else.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/36 "2013-07-04T21:49:03Z")
But the “pilot error” could have caused by dizziness, mild stroke, mild heart attack… I think this is more likely than a fuckup by a pilot whose skills are probably among the highest couple percent in the country.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wing-walker-plane-crashes-at-air-show/661643/37 "2013-07-04T23:07:56Z")
I don’t care how great or skilled you are you can still make a mistake, and low-level aerobatics are notoriously unforgiving.
I have friends who fly aerobatics, I’ve spoken with airshow pilots, and the instructor who taught me how to fly tailwheels was also an aerobatics instructor. I don’t know anyone who flies aerobatics who thinks themselves immune to just plain error. Of course they do everything possible to minimize it but “oops” is a very real possibility without needing some medical issue to occur.
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