# Winning an NFL game by 9 points in overtime **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 19, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744 "2014-10-19T00:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/21 "2014-10-24T17:20:28Z")
Here’s another scenario: team wins the toss, kicks a FG. Other team drives down to the leading team’s goal line, where some shenanigans ensue (say there is an interception where the interceptor’s own impetus causes him to run into the endzone, and then out of bounds). So that’s a safety-does the other team get to receive the free kick? Or is the game now over, a1 point victory? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/22 "2014-10-24T17:30:35Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > So that’s a safety-does the other team get to receive the free kick? Or is the game now over, a1 point victory? The game is over upon change of possession. No free kick. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/23 "2014-10-24T17:37:32Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Theoretically yes, but it wouldn’t happen. … This thread is entirely theoretical. Don’t fight it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/24 "2014-10-24T17:46:08Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > This thread is entirely theoretical. Don’t fight it. Oh come on, the interception return could and will happen sometime. If I’m out there and intercept the pass, my logical brain might know it’s best to take a knee, but I’m still running that sucker back for a touchdown. Glory versus logic isn’t really a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/25 "2014-10-24T18:45:04Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > If the defender intercepted the ball while already in the end zone and then inadvertently stepped out of the back or side of the end zone while running, would that be a safety or touchback? > > ETA: actually, I think your parenthetical “(or, be deliberately trying to run the ball out of the end zone)” answers that question - it would be safety, correct? I believe that by the letter of the rule, if the defender is deliberately trying to run the ball out of the end zone, but accidentally goes out of bounds, that would be a safety; if the player is carried out of bounds by momentum or or even is pushed out of bounds by an opponent before the defender can establish his intent to run the ball, that would be a touchback. Without looking up the wording of the rule, I’m not sure exactly how it would be theoretically treated if the defender had time to take a knee but instead deliberately chose to run out of bounds. But in practice, I’m sure referees would be pretty far on the side of assuming there was no intent to run the ball out, and wouldn’t give a safety without very very clear and unambiguous demonstration of intent by the intercepting player. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/26 "2014-10-24T18:56:25Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I believe that by the letter of the rule, if the defender is deliberately trying to run the ball out of the end zone, but accidentally goes out of bounds, that would be a safety; if the player is carried out of bounds by momentum or or even is pushed out of bounds by an opponent before the defender can establish his intent to run the ball, that would be a touchback. > > Without looking up the wording of the rule, I’m not sure exactly how it would be theoretically treated if the defender had time to take a knee but instead deliberately chose to run out of bounds. But in practice, I’m sure referees would be pretty far on the side of assuming there was no intent to run the ball out, and wouldn’t give a safety without very very clear and unambiguous demonstration of intent by the intercepting player. All that matters in the touchback-versus-safety distinction is how the ball got into the end zone. How the returning player is downed (pushed out of bounds, tackled, takes a knee, fumbles out of the end zone, etc.) is entirely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/27 "2014-10-24T19:13:03Z")
It might be noted that college football has the same rule during the second possession of each overtime. If the defense is already ahead, and gains possession, the game is over _but the play runs to completion_. There have been many college overtime games that have ended with margins of 9, 13, or even 14 (8 plus 6) points. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/28 "2014-10-24T19:23:40Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Theoretically yes, but it wouldn’t happen. There’d be no point in the opposing team positioning someone to return a short field goal attempt. If the attempt misses, the game is over. It’s much better to put all 11 men on the line to attempt a block. Hmmmmmm. Then realizing this, an end does a 5 yard slant and the holder (usually a backup quarterback) throws it for a touchdown pass. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/29 "2014-10-24T19:44:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Hmmmmmm. Then realizing this, an end does a 5 yard slant and the holder (usually a backup quarterback) throws it for a touchdown pass. Sure, that’s just a fake field goal attempt. They happen at least a few times a season. But any halfway decent coach will recognize the possibility in an OT situation like that and guard against it. You see fake field goal attempts with some regularity in college OT. I’m not sure there’s been one with the current NFL OT rules. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/30 "2014-10-26T04:29:56Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Even if they somehow decided it was an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, there’s no basis for awarding the ball back to the other team,… Of course not. I was being silly. I interpreted **BobLibDem** ’s scenario as the interceptor being a cocky ass, mocking the other team, deliberately giving them points, knowing his team was still going to win. Interesting though, because now a team can win by as much as 9 points and as little as 1 point in overtime; two outcomes not possible before the overtime rule changes. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/31 "2014-10-28T22:18:46Z")
So winning by 9 in OT “almost” happened last night. Washington got a field goal on their opening drive. On the Cowboys’ next drive, on 4th down from their own 27, a Washington defender had his hands on Romo’s pass. He wisely just knocked it down, but he probably could have scored if he went for the interception. [http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11777089&startTime=02:04](http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11777089&startTime=02:04) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/32 "2014-10-29T01:23:23Z")
Wouldn’t they still have to kick the field goal, or does that not apply in OT? I know in regulation time, you have to go for the extra point even if the clock is zero (unless they changed that too). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/33 "2014-10-29T01:41:34Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Wouldn’t they still have to kick the field goal, or does that not apply in OT? I know in regulation time, you have to go for the extra point even if the clock is zero (unless they changed that too). [http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rules](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rules) > [@](#): > > A.R. 16.5 TOUCHDOWN ON FIRST POSSESSION > Team A drives down the field on the opening possession of overtime and scores a touchdown. > Ruling: Game over. Team A wins. It doesn’t look like you would need to kick the PAT but the rules themselves don’t mention it specifically. All overtime games that ended with a touchdown show the winning margin at 6 points. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/34 "2014-10-29T02:34:36Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It doesn’t look like you would need to kick the PAT but the rules themselves don’t mention it specifically. All overtime games that ended with a touchdown show the winning margin at 6 points. They don’t kick the extra point in OT by rule, and it could only matter when you get down to the tie-breakers involving points scored or allowed. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/35 "2014-10-29T14:29:31Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rulesIt](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rulesIt) doesn’t look like you would need to kick the PAT but the rules themselves don’t mention it specifically. All overtime games that ended with a touchdown show the winning margin at 6 points. I very distinctly recall the TV talking heads covering the Minnesota-Tampa Bay game (26 Oct 2014, for the benefit of the future zombie resurrectors out there) discussing this after Anthony Barr’s defensive fumble recovery gamewinner TD. The TV team’s rented retired zebra commentator stated clearly that there would be no PAT, although it seemed like the on-field zebra herd was discussing it… like they couldn’t remember the rule. In the end, there was no PAT. So as pointed out, that game ended on a game-winning touchdown with a 6-point margin. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/36 "2014-10-30T17:38:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [NFL overtime rules](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ee2c0/article/nfl-overtime-rules) > > It doesn’t look like you would need to kick the PAT but the rules themselves don’t mention it specifically. All overtime games that ended with a touchdown show the winning margin at 6 points. Looks like that is so: > [@](#): > > [Sudden Death](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/suddendeath) > The sudden death system of determining the winner shall prevail when score is tied at the end of the regulation playing time of all NFL games. The team scoring first during overtime play shall be the winner and the game automatically ends upon any score (by safety, field goal, or touchdown) or when a score is awarded by Referee for a palpably unfair act. > At the end of regulation time the Referee will immediately toss coin at center of field in accordance with rules pertaining to the usual pregame toss. The captain of the visiting team will call the toss prior to the coin being flipped. > Following a three-minute intermission after the end of the regulation game, play will be continued in 15-minute periods or until there is a score\*. There is a two-minute intermission between subsequent periods. The teams change goals at the start of each period. Each team has three time outs per half and all general timing provisions apply as during a regular game. Disqualified players are not allowed to return. > \*Exception: In preseason and regular season games there shall be a maximum of 15 minutes of sudden death with two time outs instead of three. General provisions that apply for the fourth quarter will prevail. **Try not attempted if touchdown scored.** If there is no score in the 15 minutes, the game shall end in a tie. Emphasis added. But, according to wikipedia, the conversion (PAT) must be attempted during regulation > [@](#): > > [In the NFL](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(gridiron_football)#Differences_between_leagues), the conversion is required after a touchdown scored during the regulation game (i.e., not overtime), because point differential is used for some tiebreakers in the standings. Rarely, this can result in such an attempt having to be made at the end of the game when it cannot change the outcome of the game ETA: Doesn’t point differential also apply for overtime games? Doesn’t make sense that it would be different, but it is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/37 "2014-10-30T17:59:56Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Doesn’t point differential also apply for overtime games? Doesn’t make sense that it would be different, but it is what it is. It makes sense if you don’t think about it too much. The end of a regular game is dependent on time, not a score. PATs don’t take any time and are therefore considered part of the preceding play. A regular game is over when the clock reads 0:00 _AND_ the current play is completed, so you still attempt the PAT. OT games end when there’s a score\*, not based on the clock. Once a team scores a touchdown in sudden death, the game is over. The PAT is no longer part of the play. \*_or after initial field goal and opposing team blah blah blah…_ ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/38 "2014-10-30T20:24:45Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > All that matters in the touchback-versus-safety distinction is how the ball got into the end zone. How the returning player is downed (pushed out of bounds, tackled, takes a knee, fumbles out of the end zone, etc.) is entirely irrelevant. For the record, after actually looking at the NFL rule book, I now believe **Freddy the Pig** is right, and I was completely talking out of my nether regions. That will teach anyone to listen to me (or at least to ask for cites if they’re foolish enough to listen). Intent to run back doesn’t matter at all; it’s only how the ball got into the end zone. [QUOTE=NFL Rulebook at [nfl.com](http://nfl.com)] \*Section 5 Article 1 Safety \* It is a Safety: (a) if the offense commits a foul in its own end zone or (b) when an impetus by a team sends the ball behind its own goal line, and the ball is dead in the end zone in its possession or the ball is out of bounds behind the goal line. Exceptions […] (2) If a defensive player, in the field of play, intercepts a pass or catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick, and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession. [/QUOTE] So, if a defender intercepts in the end zone and tries to run it out but is tackled in the end zone, that is NOT a safety, but a touchback (the offensive player would have been better off letting the intercepting player get out of the end zone and then tackling him at the one yard line). The only way intent could possibly matter at all is if a defender intercepts the ball at the 5 yard line, runs into the end zone and then is tackled in the end zone while trying to return the ball. In which case the referee would have to decide whether the defender was carried into the end zone by his original momentum from making the catch (in which case defense’s ball at the 5), or the defender deliberately chose to go into the end zone after making the catch and having an opportunity to stop (in which case safety). Though I stand by my previous statement that I believe a typical referee would tend to avoid calling it a safety if there was any doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744/39 "2014-10-30T21:16:25Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Looks like that is so: > Emphasis added. Ah, thanks for finding that. I assumed it was true but couldn’t find the proper citation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-an-nfl-game-by-9-points-in-overtime/701744.md?page=1)