# Winning hearts and minds -- The American Way **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848 "2004-11-20T18:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/1 "2004-11-20T18:46:26Z")
[\*\*Iraqi and U.S. troops raid Baghdad mosque](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/20/MNGG49UVF31.DTL)\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Baghdad – Iraqi troops backed by U.S. soldiers raided the most revered Sunni Muslim mosque in Baghdad, setting off stun grenades, arresting dozens and leaving at least two people dead, according to witnesses and a hospital official. > > The raid on the Abu Hanifa mosque just after Friday prayers was the latest in a series of moves targeting religious clerics who support the insurgency, which continues to churn violently in sections of Iraq dominated by the country’s minority Sunni population. Witnesses described a chaotic scene in which Iraqi soldiers opened fire after becoming involved in a melee with enraged worshipers. \*\* Check out how the story’s playing in Iraq: [**Eyewitness to US Forces Raiding a Mosque**](http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=4014) > [@](#): > > \*\*BAGHDAD - An eyewitness commentary to IPS through a U.S. raid on a Baghdad mosque Friday gives a vivid picture of what a “successful raid” can be like. > > U.S. soldiers raided the Abu Hanifa mosque in Baghdad during Friday prayers, killing at least four and wounding up to 20 worshippers. > > At 12:30 p.m. local time, just after Imam Sheikh Muayid al-Adhami concluded his talk, about 50 U.S. soldiers with 20 Iraqi National Guardsmen (ING) entered the mosque, a witness reported. > > “Everyone was there for Friday prayers, when five Humvees and several trucks carrying INGs entered,” Abu Talat told IPS on the phone from within the mosque while the raid was in progress. “Everyone starting yelling ‘Allahu Akbar’ (God is the greatest) because they were frightened. Then the soldiers started shooting the people praying!” > > Talat said he was among a crowd of worshippers being held back at gunpoint by U.S. soldiers. Loud chanting of “Allahu Akbar” could be heard in the background during his call. Women and children were sobbing, he said. > > “They have just shot and killed at least four of the people praying,” he said in a panicked voice. “At least 10 other people are wounded now. We are on our bellies and in a very bad situation.” > > Talat gave his account over short phone calls. He said he was witnessing a horrific scene. > > “We were here praying and now there are 50 here with their guns on us,” he said. “They are holding our heads to the ground, and everyone is in chaos. This is the worst situation possible. They cannot see me talking to you. They are roughing up a blind man now.” He evidently could talk no further then. \*\* Meanwhile, DimSon recieves a warm welcome in Santiago, Chile, for his sterling efforts in bringing the World the unprovoked Iraq Carnage. Looks like his trip to Ottwa next week wil be met just as warmly: [**APEC anti-Bush protests raise spectre of similar situation during Canada trip**](http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/041119/w1119122.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*SANTIAGO, Chile (CP) - Prime Minister Paul Martin is urging Canadians to remain peaceful if they want to protest against U.S. President George W. Bush’s visit next week. > > The prime minister made the request while Chilean police pelted protesters with water cannons and tear gas as the demonstrators jeered Bush’s arrival at the Asia-Pacific leaders’ summit Friday. Martin said protesters voicing their disdain for the U.S. president or any politician is valuable - as long as it doesn’t get carried away. > > “I think that (protest) is an essential part of democracy,” Martin said after arriving at the summit. > > “As long as they’re done peacefully…then I think it’s an important part of the evolution of policy in the way the world works.” > > Bush is scheduled to arrive in Ottawa next week for his first-ever official visit to Canada. > > At his first international summit since winning re-election Nov. 2, Bush had a taste Friday of the worldwide rage that’s resulted from his invasion of Iraq. \*\* Nice. The so-called Leader of The Free World, can’t leave his backyard without bringing utter chaos and contempt. Americans must be oh so proud! So, who am I pitting, exactly? All and sundry that contributed to make this ongoing butchery possible – including all of you True Believers. A very hearty **FUCK YOU TO YOUR WHOLE LOT! Sideways. With a rusty spoon** ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/2 "2004-11-20T19:05:53Z")
Somewhere, Osama bin Laden is laughing. And laughing. And laughing… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/3 "2004-11-20T19:24:27Z")
Ever get the impession that we’re in quite a hole, and instead of getting out we’re trying to ‘dig all the way through to China’ ? I can imagine the new Al Queda recruting videos… OPEN: George W talking about how we need to wage a ‘crusade’. SECOOND SCENE: Footage of ‘shock and awe’, Bagdad being lit up like noon at midnight. THIRD SCENE: George W smirking. FOURTH SCENE: Photos of maimed, bloodied, dead Iraqi civilians. FIFTH SCENE: George W smirking. SIXTH SCENE: Photos of American GI’s in mosques SEVENTH SCENE: George W smirking. EIGTH SCENE: Photos from Abu Graib. NINTH SCENE: George W smirking. TENTH SCENE: Rapid montage, images of the carnage in Iraq alternating with George W smirking. ELEVENTH SCENE: Repeating, Max Headroom style, George W saying “bring it on.” CLOSE: Blood drips down, forming the word “Jihad”. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/4 "2004-11-20T21:55:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [\*\*Iraqi and U.S. troops raid Baghdad mosque](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/20/MNGG49UVF31.DTL)\*\* > > \*\* > > Check out how the story’s playing in Iraq: > > [**Eyewitness to US Forces Raiding a Mosque**](http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=4014) > > \*\* > > Meanwhile, DimSon recieves a warm welcome in Santiago, Chile, for his sterling efforts in bringing the World the unprovoked Iraq Carnage. Looks like his trip to Ottwa next week wil be met just as warmly: > > [**APEC anti-Bush protests raise spectre of similar situation during Canada trip**](http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/041119/w1119122.html) > > \*\* > Nice. The so-called Leader of The Free World, can’t leave his backyard without bringing utter chaos and contempt. Americans must be oh so proud! > > So, who am I pitting, exactly? All and sundry that contributed to make this ongoing butchery possible – including all of you True Believers. > > A very hearty **FUCK YOU TO YOUR WHOLE LOT! Sideways. With a rusty spoon** Yawn, yet another Anti American pissant rant. Red fury, the man who shouts the loudest yet is the most devoid of reason. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/5 "2004-11-20T21:58:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ever get the impession that we’re in quite a hole, and instead of getting out we’re trying to ‘dig all the way through to China’ ? > > I can imagine the new Al Queda recruting videos… > > OPEN: > George W talking about how we need to wage a ‘crusade’. > SECOOND SCENE: > Footage of ‘shock and awe’, Bagdad being lit up like noon at midnight. > THIRD SCENE: > George W smirking. > FOURTH SCENE: > Photos of maimed, bloodied, dead Iraqi civilians. > FIFTH SCENE: > George W smirking. > SIXTH SCENE: > Photos of American GI’s in mosques > SEVENTH SCENE: > George W smirking. > EIGTH SCENE: > Photos from Abu Graib. > NINTH SCENE: > George W smirking. > TENTH SCENE: > Rapid montage, images of the carnage in Iraq alternating with George W smirking. > ELEVENTH SCENE: > Repeating, Max Headroom style, George W saying “bring it on.” > CLOSE: > Blood drips down, forming the word “Jihad”. But when Islamist terrorism got so bad, it would of happened anyway. So whats your point if we’re just doing what we’re inevitably going to do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/6 "2004-11-20T22:14:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But when Islamist terrorism got so bad, it would of [sic] happened anyway. So whats your point if we’re just doing what we’re inevitably going to do anyway. The point is, **Liam** , is not that Islamist terrorists are bad. We know this. Islamist terrorism = Bad Thing. It’s a given. No. The point is that there is a proportion of fanatics in any population. Of the fanatics, there is a proportion that is prepared to commit violence. ‘Hearts and minds’ policies are the attempt not to induce the proportion of fanatics to grow from the formerly mild-mannered people, and thus induce the proportion of violent motherfuckers to grow. Heavy-handed US military policies contribute to ordinarily decent people turning to the Dark Side. The attitude that it’s “already as bad as it can get” is a total fallacy. It _can_ get worse, and as long as there’s succulent media fodder of American soldiers whacking mosques for the Islamists to use, it’s destined to. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/7 "2004-11-20T22:17:41Z")
Addendum: Islamists are always going to propagandise. But for fuck’s sake, don’t hand it to them on a fucking plate! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/8 "2004-11-20T22:19:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But when Islamist terrorism got so bad, Why did it “get bad?” When did it “get bad?” What was it like before it “got bad?” Does it all stem from one root? Does it all have the same goal? Does it all follow the same patterns? Just so that we’re discussing on the same ground, please answer those for me. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > it would of happened anyway. Elaborate on this. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So whats your point if we’re just doing what we’re inevitably going to do anyway. Well, my point doesn’t touch on the (I believe fallacious) concept that we were inevetibly going to be doing this. Let’s check paradigms and assumptions and then continue, yes? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/9 "2004-11-21T00:22:44Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yawn, yet another Anti American pissant rant. Red fury, the man who shouts the loudest yet is the most devoid of reason. Says the clueless xenophobic pissant. Let’s hear them. Those ‘reasons’ of yours. You’re always good for a vapid chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/10 "2004-11-21T00:28:55Z")
“Cause and effect,” you’d think the brainacs running this operation would have heard of the concept. But noooo…guess it was to much to ask. [**Violence Breaks Out All Over Baghdad**](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=268532) > [@](#): > > \*\*BAGHDAD, Iraq Nov 20, 2004 — Baghdad exploded in violence Saturday, as insurgents attacked a U.S. patrol and a police station, assassinated four government employees and detonated several bombs. One American soldier was killed and nine were wounded during clashes that also left three Iraqi troops and a police officer dead. > > Some of the heaviest violence came in Azamiyah, a largely Sunni Arab district of Baghdad where a day earlier U.S. troops raided the capital’s main Sunni mosque. Shops were in flames, and a U.S. Humvee burned, with the body of what appeared to be its driver inside. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/11 "2004-11-21T16:05:30Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Says the clueless xenophobic pissant. > > Let’s hear them. Those ‘reasons’ of yours. You’re always good for a vapid chuckle. You refuse to change your opinion in light of overwhelming evidence against you, that why. Ants don’t piss like we do 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/12 "2004-11-21T16:32:27Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You refuse to change your opinion in light of overwhelming evidence against you, that why. This is truly the Projection Presidency. Trickle-down projection. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/13 "2004-11-21T16:52:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You refuse to change your opinion in light of overwhelming evidence against you, that why. The absence of any evidence from you is underwhelming, **RL**. Namecalling is not debate. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/14 "2004-11-21T18:02:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You refuse to change your opinion in light of overwhelming evidence against you, that why. You going to answer my questions and/or give a shred of proof? ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/15 "2004-11-21T18:09:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You going to answer my questions and/or give a shred of proof? I’ve got $5.00 on “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/16 "2004-11-21T18:22:31Z")
> [@Ninja Pizza Guy](#): > > I’ve got $5.00 on “no”. I’ll take that bet. I think **Ryan\_Liam** will come back with a long and detailed analysis of why **Red Fury** is mistaken with coherent arguments and links to multiple sources of evidence. Oh God, what’s in this tea?? nb. joke. I’m not really sending you $5. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/17 "2004-11-21T18:24:08Z")
If you do, could you make it Euros? We seem to be having a bit of a rough patch, dollar wise. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/18 "2004-11-21T19:07:41Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You refuse to change your opinion in light of overwhelming evidence against you, that why. > > Ants don’t piss like we do 😃 For shits and giggles, **Ryan** , let’s hear your interpretation of: 1-My postion and 2-The “overwhelming evidence” against it. Interesting factiod: Denial is not a river in Egypt. Meanwhile, back in the real world: [**Children Pay Cost of Iraq’s Chaos**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A809-2004Nov20?language=printer) – **Malnutrition Nearly Double What It Was Before Invasion** > [@](#): > > \*\*BAGHDAD – Acute malnutrition among young children in Iraq has nearly doubled since the United States led an invasion of the country 20 months ago, according to surveys by the United Nations, aid agencies and the interim Iraqi government. > > After the rate of acute malnutrition among children younger than 5 steadily declined to 4 percent two years ago, it shot up to 7.7 percent this year, according to a study conducted by Iraq’s Health Ministry in cooperation with Norway’s Institute for Applied International Studies and the U.N. Development Program. The new figure translates to roughly 400,000 Iraqi children suffering from “wasting,” a condition characterized by chronic diarrhea and dangerous deficiencies of protein. > > \ > > Iraq’s child malnutrition rate now roughly equals that of Burundi, a central African nation torn by more than a decade of war. It is far higher than rates in Uganda and Haiti. > > \ > > Iraqi health officials like to surprise visitors by pointing out that the nutrition issue facing young Iraqis a generation ago was obesity. Malnutrition, they say, appeared in the early 1990s with U.N. trade sanctions championed by Washington to punish the government led by President Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait in 1990. > > International aid efforts and the U.N. oil-for-food program helped reduce the ruinous impact of sanctions, and the rate of acute malnutrition among the youngest Iraqis gradually dropped from a peak of 11 percent in 1996 to 4 percent in 2002. But the invasion in March 2003 and the widespread looting in its aftermath severely damaged the basic structures of governance in Iraq, and persistent violence across the country slowed the pace of reconstruction almost to a halt. > > In its most recent assessment of five sectors of Iraq’s reconstruction, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington research group, said health care was worsening at the quickest pace. \*\* Of course, **Ryan** , or any other member of the True Believers, will no doubt be along shortly to explain that the above is simply part of the larger strategy in place for winning Iraqi hearts and minds. After all, obesity is a certain health risk for children and this is simply a Kevorkian adaptation of the highly succesful South Beach diet. Those who survive will no doubt be eternally grateful to the thoughtful occupying dietitians. Humanitarian crisis? Bullocks! We simply lack _vision_. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/19 "2004-11-21T20:01:08Z")
> [@Ninja Pizza Guy](#): > > I’ve got $5.00 on “no”. Hold on to those dollars, they might become much more valuable as a collector’s item soon. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/20 "2004-11-21T20:51:22Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Somewhere, Osama bin Laden is laughing. And laughing. And laughing… I’m going to ride the line on this one. Yes, OBL is laughing. He isn’t concerned about the safety of fellow Muslims, and would be pleased to see a few killed if it meant trouble for the US. However, now that the US is neck deep in this asinine conflict, I don’t see any choice but to grab those who rally the in insurgents. Wherever they are. It is clear to me that, all too often, ‘where they are’ is at mosques. Since schools and mosques were used for their human shield quotient in Gulf War rev. 1, shame on the US for getting involved in this erroneous quest for WMD, where even more innocents are in harms way. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848.md?page=2)