# Winning hearts and minds -- The American Way **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848 "2004-11-20T18:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/41 "2004-11-22T12:44:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > do you want to hand it over to them on a plate? I thought that was the point. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/42 "2004-11-22T13:07:08Z")
But it has to be our plate, we dish out the servings, and we decide who gets what to eat. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/43 "2004-11-22T13:19:17Z")
Speaking of eating, I’ve just spent the last several minutes hunting fruitlessly for the news article I read over the weekend which points out that there are actually more children suffering from malnutrition now than under Saddam Hussein during the UN-imposed sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/44 "2004-11-22T14:01:34Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Speaking of eating, I’ve just spent the last several minutes hunting fruitlessly for the news article I read over the weekend which points out that there are actually more children suffering from malnutrition now than under Saddam Hussein during the UN-imposed sanctions. [UNICEF Finds Iraq Child Malnutrition Doubled](http://www.wbai.org/artman/publish/article_304.php) > [@](#): > > Two months after the start of the Iraq war, UNICEF has called for urgent action to halt what it believes is the plummeting nutritional status of Iraqi children. > > UNICEF today released troubling findings from a rapid nutrition assessment undertaken in Baghdad, which has found that acute malnutrition rates in children under five have nearly doubled since a previous survey in February 2002. > > “We can assume that the situation is as bad, if not much worse, in other urban centers throughout Iraq,” said the UNICEF Representative in Iraq, Carel De Rooy. “We knew going into the war, that Iraqi children were poorly nourished. These new findings make it clear that not enough is being done to turn the situation around. Instead, it has gotten worse.” Go us. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/45 "2004-11-22T15:27:09Z")
**ETF** , in addition to **tagos’s** cite, I’d [**linked to this recent WP Article upthread**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5522439&postcount=18) which goes into quite a bit of detail concerning the rapidly deteriorating health care conditions for Iraqi children. Perhaps that’s the one you were looking for. What? No java yet? 🙂 * * * The Irrelevant One dissembles thusly: > [@Ryan](#): > > you think seperating them on basis of religion and ethnicity is going to be a good idea, tell me what how you’re going to explain the next hundred or so fiefdoms that pop up on basis of tribe, retard. Don’t you get it? If we divide, then who knows where it will stop, and remember, this place is twice the size of France in an area of large scale Islamic extremism, do you want to hand it over to them on a plate? Yo, dipshit, how about you cut out the condescencing “we” shit when refering to Iraq? Because, in case it’s scaped your notice, it’s _their fuckin’ country_. And sooner or later, they’ll be free again. At such time they’ll do with their country _exactly_ what they see fit. If that means a Balkanized state, so be it – in the long run, you’re not going to be able to prevent it. Although, I do think the Sunni/Shiite tiff has been overplayed in the media and there’s a chace those two might work something out amongst themselves – national sentiment is there Kurds are something else altogether, essetially having already tastes independence for the past ten years or so by virtue of the USUK no-fly zones. So no doubt that they’ll want to foge ahead with their dream of a Kurdistan nation. Problem there is twofold. One, some of the most lucrative oil wells lie in territory that will be contested by the Sunnis – just on that account it’s bound ot get bloody. But if that wasn’t enough, Turkey has already made it abundantly clear that it will not stand idly by for the birth of an independent Kurdistan, for their own, long oppresed Kurd minority will want to join them in forging a united Greater Kurdistan. Bad mojo all around. Lastly, whatever happens, rest assured that a secular, pro-westen Iraq is no longer a viable option. See, _that_ was Saddam’s job, to keep Iraq secular and that was a big reason _why_ he had the backing of prior American Administrations even as he was at the height of his murderous ways. See Poppy Bush’s comments in his bio for further detail as to why he didn’t march on to Baghdad in the first GW. Unlike his puppet of a son, he was smart enough to realize what the likely outcome of such a military expedition would be. Namely the one you’re seeing now: a bloody quagmire followed by ethnic unrest. IOW, The Mother of All Clusterfucks. Congratulations. You’ve gone and done it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/46 "2004-11-22T16:49:44Z")
[**’Baghdad is now a battlefield, and we are in the middle’**](http://www.suntimes.com/output/iraq/cst-nws-iside22.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*BAGHDAD, Iraq – The Iraqi capital, on edge for months because of unrelenting violence, has shed its business-as-usual veneer and become a city at war. > > Last week’s U.S.-Iraqi raid on the Abu Hanifa mosque – one of the most revered shrines for Sunni Muslims – sparked street battles, assassinations and a rash of bombings. > > The chaos has fanned sectarian tension and deepened Sunni distrust of interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, a Shiite installed by the Americans five months ago. It has also heightened the anxiety of the city’s 6 million people – already worn down by years of sanctions and tyranny, then war, military occupation, crime and deprivation. > > ‘‘Baghdad is now a battlefield, and we are in the middle of it,’’ said Qasim al-Sabti, an artist who kept his children home from school Saturday, which is a work day in Iraq. When he sent his children back to school Sunday, the teachers didn’t show up. \*\* Surprising, isn’t it? Freedom’s on the march. Or how about this breaking story? Goes to the heart of what I wrote before, that the US has no idea who the insurgents really are: [**"Who to trust?" ask U.S. troops after Mosul mayhem**](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAR246598.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*MOSUL, Iraq, Nov 22 (Reuters) - Besides destroying police stations and killing Iraqi soldiers, insurgents in Mosul have also managed to strike at a more intangible target in the last 10 days – the hard-earned trust between U.S. troops and Iraqis. > > After 19 months of trying to build relationships in Iraq’s third-largest city, two days of violent unrest and their aftermath have left U.S. troops wondering who their allies really are and many Iraqis warier than ever of the Americans. > > “It’s impossible to tell who’s on our side, particularly when it comes to the police,” said Captain Robert Lackey, a company commander with the U.S. Stryker Brigade, which patrols Mosul and a large portion of northern Iraq. > > “We’ve learned that we’ve got to do more to build local sources and understand what’s going on in the city, but it’s going to take time. It’s like starting over.” > > Many Iraqi police dropped their weapons and ran when hundreds of insurgents stormed Mosul police stations and then looted, burned or blew them up in a two-day rampage on Nov. 10-11. > > \ > > U.S. authorities spent millions of dollars and many man hours setting up, training and supplying Mosul’s 4,000-strong police force over the past year, only to have 80 percent of it desert the moment insurgents threatened. \*\* It’ll be interesting to see how the True Believers attempt to spin this one, for I have no idea how one goes about winning a war in which you’re unable to identify the enemy. Good Morning Iraq! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/47 "2004-11-22T17:09:37Z")
Fucktard? Fucked soft? So hard to decide! By the way, answer [my](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5520327&postcount=8) [questions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5523110&postcount=32) Yes? I mean, fucking seriously, what the hell is up with you? You post these ridiculous statements, and then don’t justify them, don’t support them, and suggest that anybody who disagrees is an idiot, and yet, you have **not one single cite**. Do you have your head so far up your ass that you’re reading cites tatooed onto your colon? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/48 "2004-11-22T18:24:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Answer my question fucktard, if you think seperating them on basis of religion and ethnicity is going to be a good idea, tell me what how you’re going to explain the next hundred or so fiefdoms that pop up on basis of tribe, retard. Don’t you get it? If we divide, then who knows where it will stop, and remember, this place is twice the size of France in an area of large scale Islamic extremism, do you want to hand it over to them on a plate? Thankfully others have address your moronic ‘points’, such as they are. Is this the question you are so hot for me to answer? The insightful coup de gras you have delivered into the spleen of common sense? “Besides, if we split the country up, why stop their?” [sic] This question wasn’t even addressed to me, and it has been answered. And then some. “this place is twice the size of France” Where do you come up with this stuff? Is there a Big Book of Inaccurate Facts that you use a reference? France is some 40K sq. miles larger than Iraq. “what how you’re going to explain the next hundred or so fiefdoms that pop up on basis of tribe, retard” Why would I need to explain how countries set their own borders? Is there some limit to the number of countries in the world that we cannot exceed? I should also mention that your use of a mental disability as a pejorative is exceeding offensive. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/49 "2004-11-22T18:31:39Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Is there some limit to the number of countries in the world that we cannot exceed? We need to make sure there aren’t too many countries otherwise the game balance will be thrown off. I mean, if there are lots of small countires it will be even easier for Duhbya to get Risk cards! (Although to be fair, he hasn’t ended his turn yet.) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/50 "2004-11-22T20:29:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **ETF** , in addition to **tagos’s** cite, I’d [**linked to this recent WP Article upthread**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5522439&postcount=18) which goes into quite a bit of detail concerning the rapidly deteriorating health care conditions for Iraqi children. Perhaps that’s the one you were looking for. > > What? No java yet? 🙂 Yep, that’s what I was thinking of. I need another cup of tea, looks like. No thanks, no coffee – then my hands would shake too much to type. Oh, well, at least that explains why I couldn’t find it Googling news sites. 😃 > [@](#): > > It’ll be interesting to see how the True Believers attempt to spin this one, for I have no idea how one goes about winning a war in which you’re unable to identify the enemy. hey, no problem – the [neocon warhawks who pushed for the invasion now say we should cut and run](http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/11/22/hawks_push_deep_cuts_in_forces_in_iraq/). Or, well, they don’t phrase it like that, of course, but just imagine what it would be called if Kerry were president and announced swift troop reductions? > [@](#): > > A growing number of national security specialists who supported the toppling of Saddam Hussein are moving to a position unthinkable even a few months ago: that the large US military presence is impeding stability as much as contributing to it and that the United States should begin major reductions in troops beginning early next year. > > Their assessments, expressed in reports, think tank meetings, and interviews, run counter to the Bush administration’s insistence that the troops will remain indefinitely to establish security. But some contend that the growing support for an earlier pullout could alter the administration’s thinking. > > Those arguing for immediate troop reductions include key Pentagon advisers, prominent neoconservatives, and some of the fiercest supporters of the Iraq invasion among Washington’s policy elite. > > The core of their arguments is that even as the US-led coalition goes on the offensive against the insurgency, the United States, by its very presence, is stimulating the resistance. So who’s taking bets on how long it will be before “Stay the course” is consigned to the trash bin, and “Mission accomplished” is dusted off and trotted out again? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/51 "2004-11-22T22:03:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Why would I need to explain how countries set their own borders? Is there some limit to the number of countries in the world that we cannot exceed? I should also mention that your use of a mental disability as a pejorative is exceeding offensive. Explain what happens when most of the Sunni Arabs in the middle of Iraq, with the least amount of Oil reserves, don’t get a slice of the cake, so to speak, and then fight for it. Explain. Wrap your brains around that. Who says I would want a limit on the number of states? But when it happens to be a very bad idea for the stability of the world, you kinda consider the negative situations when you let every tribe declare independence, and then have them fighting each other. > [@](#): > > Where do you come up with this stuff? Is there a Big Book of Inaccurate Facts that you use a reference? France is some 40K sq. miles larger than Iraq. Then fine I got my facts wrong, but you can’t deny its a big country with a small population located within its borders, splitting it up isn’t going to make the problem go away, in fact it’ll make more. > [@](#): > > Surprising, isn’t it? Freedom’s on the march. Yep it sure is. Once the dust settles, you’ll all be proved wrong. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Yo, dipshit, how about you cut out the condescencing “we” shit when refering to Iraq? Because, in case it’s scaped your notice, it’s their fuckin’ country. And sooner or later, they’ll be free again. At such time they’ll do with their country exactly what they see fit. If that means a Balkanized state, so be it – in the long run, you’re not going to be able to prevent it. Although, I do think the Sunni/Shiite tiff has been overplayed in the media and there’s a chace those two might work something out amongst themselves – national sentiment is there Hey, fucktard, ‘we’ as in our nations, happen to be in Iraq, trying to help bring about a democratic government, so when I say ‘we’ I mean ‘we’ as in its in the British the American and Iraqi interests to bring about a democratic government. Wait Wait Wait, is this the same kinda Balkanisation we saw in Afghanistan? Did that work? No? Didn’t we go back? And are now trying desperately to restore their central government? Oh wait? Did I miss something? Bollocks to the Sunni/Shia divide, did you know that Kurds are Sunni? Did you know they get along better with their Shia counterparts? So ok, this contributes to two thrids of Iraq ok ok, and now that Arab Sunnis have been kicked out of the ruling elite, they now are pretty happy with being within a Federalised Iraqi state? > [@](#): > > Kurds are something else altogether, essetially having already tastes independence for the past ten years or so by virtue of the USUK no-fly zones. So no doubt that they’ll want to foge ahead with their dream of a Kurdistan nation. Problem there is twofold. One, some of the most lucrative oil wells lie in territory that will be contested by the Sunnis – just on that account it’s bound ot get bloody. But if that wasn’t enough, Turkey has already made it abundantly clear that it will not stand idly by for the birth of an independent Kurdistan, for their own, long oppresed Kurd minority will want to join them in forging a united Greater Kurdistan. Bad mojo all around. Ahhh, yes, so they’re not stupid enough to wait it out for two generations or so, so they’ll agree to the set up of the provisional Parliament they will have elected in January the 30th! 😃 Hey, wait a minute, fly Zones you say? Oh wait! Wasn’t their two fly zones? One for the Shia south, and the Kurdish north? But wait? Where is you passionate debate about the Shia wanting to split? Maybe because, they are more intelligent in realising that its better to remain in the national framework of a federalised Iraqi state than to split and make a run. > [@](#): > > Lastly, whatever happens, rest assured that a secular, pro-westen Iraq is no longer a viable option. See, that was Saddam’s job, to keep Iraq secular and that was a big reason why he had the backing of prior American Administrations even as he was at the height of his murderous ways. See Poppy Bush’s comments in his bio for further detail as to why he didn’t march on to Baghdad in the first GW. Unlike his puppet of a son, he was smart enough to realize what the likely outcome of such a military expedition would be. Namely the one you’re seeing now: a bloody quagmire followed by ethnic unrest. IOW, The Mother of All Clusterfucks. Hey! Wait a minute I heard GWB didn’t march in onto Baghdad because it wasn’t the mandate of the large Arab coalition he’d built up? Wait a minute? The ethnic unrest? Wouldn’t of this of happened regardless, like when Saddam had died? > [@](#): > > Congratulations. You’ve gone and done it. Yes, I certainly have 😃 Jesus H Christ, its good we didn’t have you kinda people in World War Two. I can Imagine the papers ran by you during the bad times of 39-43, would of been a fucking nightmare. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/52 "2004-11-23T00:17:52Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Jesus H Christ, its good we didn’t have you kinda people in World War Two. I can Imagine the papers ran by you during the bad times of 39-43, would of been a fucking nightmare. How dare you compare this ill conceived conflict, entered into with false intelligence, without the support of most of our key European allies, to WWII. To call it disingenuous would be an understatement. Fuck off, you excretable tossmonkey. Regarding the oil reserves: They are where they are, and there are likely more. Incidentally, Iraq as a whole is producing only a fraction of what they were in 1990, and getting production up to even those modest levels would require the repair and replacement of US$50Bn or more in infrastructure and will take _years_. This is based on data that was put together last year, and I’m sure the pricetag has gotten much larger. In short, the Iraqis are not benefiting from their reserves, and won’t any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/53 "2004-11-23T09:40:33Z")
The camera man speaks for the first time. [‘Something was not right’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1357396,00.html) > [@](#): > > It’s time for you to have the facts, in my own words, about what I saw, without imposing on that marine guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds. Here it goes. > [@](#): > > Through my viewfinder I can see him raise the muzzle of his rifle in the direction of the wounded Iraqi. There are no sudden movements, no reaching or lunging. > > However, the marine could legitimately believe the man poses some kind of danger. Maybe he’s going to cover him while another marine searches for weapons. > > Instead, he pulls the trigger. There is a small splatter against the back wall and the man’s leg slumps down. > > “Well he’s dead now,” says another marine in the background. > > I am still rolling. I feel the deep pit of my stomach. The marine then abruptly turns away and strides away, right past the fifth wounded insurgent lying next to a column. He is very much alive and peering from his blanket. > > He is moving, even trying to talk. But for some reason, it seems he did not pose the same apparent “danger” as the other man - though he may have been more capable of hiding a weapon or explosive beneath his blanket. > [@](#): > > No one, especially someone like me who has lived in a war zone, would deny that a soldier or marine could legitimately err on the side of caution under those circumstances. War is about killing your enemy before he kills you. > > In the particular circumstance I was reporting, it bothered me that the marine didn’t seem to consider the other insurgents a threat - the one very obviously moving under the blanket, or even the two next to me that were still breathing. > > I can’t know what was in the mind of that marine. He is the only one who does. > > But observing all of this as an experienced war reporter who always bore in mind the perils of this conflict, even knowing the possibilities of mitigating circumstances - it appeared to me very plainly that something was not right. According to Lt Col Bob Miller, the rules of engagement in Falluja required soldiers or marines to determine hostile intent before using deadly force. I was not watching from a hundred feet away. I was in the same room. Aside from breathing, I did not observe any movement at all. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848/54 "2004-11-23T10:27:07Z")
Re-posted this cite in Great Debates, where it probably should have been in the first place. Apologies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-hearts-and-minds-the-american-way/275848.md?page=2)