# Winning system in Roulette **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122 "2004-06-01T19:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/21 "2004-06-02T02:03:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Las Vegas wasn’t built by people who can’t do basic probability math. Just a small nitpick. I betcha _it was_. But they knew how to hire people who’d paid attention in math class. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/22 "2004-06-02T02:10:14Z")
**LuckySevens** wrote > [@](#): > > Why do people say “Oh casinos will be out of business if schemes like this worked…” > > […] > > But casinos can be beaten mathematically; just not practically beaten. They can in some games, specifically Black Jack under certain conditions. Also, in paramutual games such as poker, or betting on sporting events. But you’re mistaken if you believe that casinos can be beat in roulette as has been proposed here. There is no gambling system that can make you win at roulette. None. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/23 "2004-06-02T02:11:20Z")
Long-time Las Vegan here … There is in fact exactly one winning system for roulettte: Be the guy who owns the wheel & makes the rules. And even then you can lose some money sometimes for awhile. I always enjoyed the nice folks who flew into town every weekend with a system and paid my income taxes & property taxes for me so I ddn’t have to. And susidized the entertainment & food & booze & so forth, so I didn’t have to pay market rates for all those goodies. And no, I didn’t work in the casino industry, I just lived there and enjoyed the fallout from the enless cash fountain those system players left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/24 "2004-06-02T02:12:38Z")
In fact, to correct the last, casinos aren’t beaten in paramutual games. They benefit no matter how much you make. So that narrows it to Black Jack, and even that’s unlikely, perhaps even impossible, with multiple decks and tighter rules. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/25 "2004-06-02T02:34:16Z")
Right. As I said, every time somebody comes up with a scheme that alters the odds in their favor, the casinos change the rules. In blackjack over the years, they’ve gone from one pack of cards to many, from one play all the way through the deck to shuffling early and often. And they ban card-counters, ban physical counters and computers, ban anything that makes it easier to win. Gambling in a casino is not a stationary target of mathematical precision. It’s against the house, and the house keeps the odds in its favor no matter what it has to do. The **only** real world question is if casinos can be beaten practically. Casinos **would** go out of business if they were stupid enough not to adapt to new times and techniques. They aren’t. It’s not just a matter of there always being enough suckers. No matter how smart you are, you can’t win in the long run, because the odds will always shift to be against you. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/26 "2004-06-02T02:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by **Bill H.** > But you’re mistaken if you believe that casinos can be beat in roulette as has been proposed here. There is no gambling system that can make you win at roulette. None. Sure there is. If you have the patience to record all the numbers that the ball lands on over a large amount of spins, you may find a wheel that is biased towards one number (because no wheel can be made perfect). If you find the wheel is biased enought towards one number, all you have to do is keep betting the same amount of money on that number over and over and you will be a winner in the long run. Of course casinos look out for this but it is still possible. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/27 "2004-06-02T03:33:05Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Sure there is. If you have the patience to record all the numbers that the ball lands on over a large amount of spins, you may find a wheel that is biased towards one number (because no wheel can be made perfect). If you find the wheel is biased enought towards one number, all you have to do is keep betting the same amount of money on that number over and over and you will be a winner in the long run. Of course casinos look out for this but it is still possible. I predicate this by saying I have a basic understanding of probability. Which is why I have no practical need to know, and therefore don’t know, much about roulette However, I thought that there was a number (is it 00?) that means the house wins. If I’m right, for your idea to be correct, the bias in the wheel has to be so great that it improves the odds in your favour to an extent greater than the 00 worsens the odds in your favour. No chance. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/28 "2004-06-02T03:41:24Z")
OK, I’m wrong about the 00. Next time I’ll do research _before_ posting. Sorry. Anyway, my point is still good I think because the house has an edge in terms of what they pay and what the odds are on any given bet. And for your system to work, the bias in the wheel has to help to an extent greater than that edge. I would suspect that there is no way any roulette wheel is going to be out of whack to that extent in favour of any given number. Except if it is “bent” at the behest of the casino, of course, and if it’s that sort of casino, you ain’t never going to win anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/29 "2004-06-02T03:46:48Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > OK, I’m wrong about the 00. Next time I’ll do research _before_ posting. Sorry. > > Anyway, my point is still good I think because the house has an edge in terms of what they pay and what the odds are on any given bet. And for your system to work, the bias in the wheel has to help to an extent greater than that edge. I would suspect that there is no way any roulette wheel is going to be out of whack to that extent in favour of any given number. > > Except if it is “bent” at the behest of the casino, of course, and if it’s that sort of casino, you ain’t never going to win anyway. The house edge on most games is rather small. Even if they only make a penny or two per dollar bet (on average), how many dollars in bets do you suppose are placed in any particular casino on any given day? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/30 "2004-06-02T03:53:04Z")
Casinos do better than a penny per dollar. The house edge in American roulette is 5.26%. [This site](http://www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.uk/casino/casinohouseedge.htm) gives the house advantage for a variety of games. And in total, casinos do wonderfully well: > [@](#): > > Each game inside the casino has an in-built advantage for the house. It is the factor that supplies casinos with their gaming profits. Around 18% of the cash ‘drop’ in casinos is retained as profit, or ‘take’. This means that 18% of the money a casino gets to put down the shute on the gambling tables is pure gaming profit. (averaged out over a period of time) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/31 "2004-06-02T04:00:03Z")
\*\*Princhester \*\* wrote > [@](#): > > OK, I’m wrong about the 00. Next time I’ll do research before posting. Sorry. No, you were right on the money. A roulette table has 1-36 (which are red/black and (duh) odd/even), plus 0 and 00. (Some have only the 0 and no 00, but I’ve never seen one in Las Vegas at least) ---
**Author:** ![stockton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@stockton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stockton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/32 "2004-06-02T04:06:12Z")
As luck would have it, I spent the better part of yesterday at a casino playing roulette. At one point, there were 12 black spins in a row, followed by two 00s (fortunately, I was ON the 00 when it hit, and let it ride). I see these streaks every time I play (twice a year or so). The minimum was $10 inside, $10 outside and $5K max on any outside bet. The table was really hot (lots of people were winning lots of money quickly - #35 came up three times in a row, and two times in a row a few spins later. Everyone had some chips there). The casino went into panic mode - the pit bosses ALL came over (3 or 4) to observe, and they switched out ‘dealers’ between EVERY spin. They also spun right away, so you couldn’t reach all over and put down bets on your favorite numbers, you had to drop $10 SOMEWHERE to stay in the game. Folks were bitching and complaining, and the dealer said “tell my boss, I don’t make the rules.” Sunday total: -$300 Monday total: +$325 Barely squeaked it out this time. I usually lose a few hundred when we pop in. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/33 "2004-06-02T04:11:02Z")
**Bill H.** , **Princhester** was wrong, he knew about 00, but he thought it meant you automatically lost, which it does not. There are some schools of thought that you can win at roulette by watching the guy running the game. You naturally develop a rhythm when throwing the ball so many times, so if you track where he releases it versus where it lands, you can possibly predict the section of the wheel that it will hit. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/34 "2004-06-02T04:12:24Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > In fact, to correct the last, casinos aren’t beaten in paramutual games. They benefit no matter how much you make. So that narrows it to Black Jack, and even that’s unlikely, perhaps even impossible, with multiple decks and tighter rules. It’s not that difficult to count through 6 or 8 decks. A bigger problem is shoe penetration and auto-shufflers. Once a casino has gone to all BJ tables having shuffling machines (that constantly shuffle) there is no way to come out ahead (over the long haul) in anything except the parimutuels. And as noted, the casino also gets a take on the parimutuels. Enjoy the buffet, though! ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/35 "2004-06-02T04:14:21Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Casinos do better than a penny per dollar. The house edge in American roulette is 5.26%. Well, yes, I’m aware that they DO better than a penny on the dollar, I was just saying that with such a HUGE volume of gambling going on, the margin doesn’t have to be all lat large, and even small unexpected advantages for the player can outweigh the casino’s odds. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/36 "2004-06-02T06:06:40Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > Didn’t we just talk about Martingales somewhere on the boards? And here we are again. Didn’t you know it was wednesday? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/37 "2004-06-02T11:08:07Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Well, yes, I’m aware that they DO better than a penny on the dollar, I was just saying that with such a HUGE volume of gambling going on, the margin doesn’t have to be all lat large, and even small unexpected advantages for the player can outweigh the casino’s odds. The house doesn’t really need a margin at all, though it obviously helps. The bankroll size factor alone would win the house a profit. Martingales could certainly work theoretically but can’t work practically due to house limits. That’s one reason why they have them. ---
**Author:** ![LuckySevens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@LuckySevens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LuckySevens)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/38 "2004-06-02T11:22:22Z")
> [@flight](#): > > You countered your own point. You can win a little money a lot of the time with this method, but when you lose you lose HUGE. When you average that out over time you will end up losing money. If you lose the casino wins. That is how it works. There are two ways you can consistently win without cheating. One is count cards at balckjack. Of course, the casinos do not like to lose so they kick you out. The second is to get very good at poker. The casinos do not care abou this as you are not taking their money, but rather the money of suckers. But they CAN be beaten, can they not? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/39 "2004-06-02T14:07:39Z")
The bottom line: with ANY system, over the long run you’ll lose about 5% of your money playing roulette. You can do things like make it more likely you’ll win a given session, but that only makes it so that you lose more when you do lose. There is one system, though, a closely guarded secret, that can cut the house advantage to literally nothing: [http://www.caro.com/caro\_roulette\_system\_1.htm](http://www.caro.com/caro_roulette_system_1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122/40 "2004-06-02T15:16:18Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Sure there is. If you have the patience to record all the numbers that the ball lands on over a large amount of spins, you may find a wheel that is biased towards one number (because no wheel can be made perfect). If you find the wheel is biased enought towards one number, all you have to do is keep betting the same amount of money on that number over and over and you will be a winner in the long run. Of course casinos look out for this but it is still possible. According to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/luck/monte.htm) there was someone who managed to do just that at Monte Carlo. Of course, that was over 100 years ago, and even then, the casino figured out how to counter him after a few days and end his winning streak. Still, he went home with over $300,000, a hell of a lot of money back then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-system-in-roulette/248122.md?page=3)