# Winning the war in Afghanistan. How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431 "2009-11-13T11:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/21 "2009-11-15T09:53:37Z")
To win in Afghanistan, we have to help them get rich. If they don’t see any benefit to them for us being there, they wont want us. Build schools. Buy local goods. Build civilian infrastructure. A thousand Taliban attacks a year can’t crack the resolve of wealthy people who want to protect their stuff. If the Afghans stay poor, we’re gonna lose. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/22 "2009-11-15T10:16:37Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > With this plan, in the event that Karzai did “get his shit together” and American and NATO troops stayed on in Afghanistan, wouldn’t President Obama then be called a liar for practically promising the withdrawal of troops, with a date certain to boot, and then completely turning around? In fact, that would be the worst of both worlds as he would be castigated from the right for announcing a withdrawal from Afghanistan and then castigated all over again by going back on his word to withdrawal. This is one of the reasons why military strategy cannot be executed via press conferences. For the reasons you mentioned, there could be no public knowledge of a withdrawal deadline. This would have to be relayed in high-level (and secretive) talks with the Karzai Administration. If word got out (and IMO it would) the insurgency would only have to lay-low and refuse to engage at any political level until the U.S. pulled out and then wreak havoc. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/23 "2009-11-15T18:56:10Z")
[http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6571](http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6571) There is no victory in Afghanistan. They melt into the countryside and wait for us to leave. They have been fighting for generations and are skilled at that kind of warfare. It is a waste of treasury and lives. Al Queada is not there. I think whenever they announce troop levels they should include the mercenaries. We have a lot more than the troop levels they announce. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/24 "2009-11-15T19:01:34Z")
> [@cn8of10](#): > > This is one of the reasons why military strategy cannot be executed via press conferences. For the reasons you mentioned, there could be no public knowledge of a withdrawal deadline. This would have to be relayed in high-level (and secretive) talks with the Karzai Administration. If word got out (and IMO it would) the insurgency would only have to lay-low and refuse to engage at any political level until the U.S. pulled out and then wreak havoc. Yeah right, like that’s possible outside of some xbox game. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/25 "2009-11-15T19:33:41Z")
I’m probably one of the biggest hawks on this board. There isn’t anything to win in Afghanistan. Russia must love seeing us wasting billions daily and the Chinese are probably a close second. Let Russia and China and India worry about all of the freaking “stans” in their neighborhood. I wish Obama had the balls to say fuckit and get us the hell out of that third world shit hole. Sure he and the Dems would probably take a political hit from the right but it would still be the right thing to do. I hardly agree with Biden on anything but he and others are right. Lob some cruise missiles on occasion and keep the predators flying. Let the Taliban and Al Queada have just enough to worry about staying alive and less time going after the evil Americans and NATO countries. Again, there is nothing to win there and there never was. Get out now. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/26 "2009-11-15T23:40:40Z")
I am probably the biggest pacifist on the board. It is a high bar to climb over to convince me to back a war. These wars are criminal and shameful. Afghanistan is not a threat to America. The soldiers will wonder what the hell they are supposed to be doing. Nobody can even define what victory is. Since that is the case, how can you justify warring there? Al Queada isn’t there. Al Queada does not even want Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/27 "2009-11-16T01:34:16Z")
> [@cn8of10](#): > > I’m not proposing the U.S. military attempt to secure the entire Pakistan border, but instead keep a highly visible and well-supported presence in the border region. Judicious use of observation platforms (UAVs, satellite imagery, etc.) should reveal where the insurgents are crossing the border so that ground assaults could be coordinated and effective with minimal civilian impact. Naturally the military would not be able to attack _every_ group crossing, but knowing where they are would allow intel to pick and choose valuable targets. Somewhat like a counter-insurgency using insurgency tactics. > Although I was not aware of the extent of this situation as reported in your [cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/13/us-trucks-security-taliban), I did realize that the supply lines from Bagram AFB to the rest of the country (particularly in the South) was long and exposed. This is why I suggested setting up larger bases near regional airports. Although this would require additional funding and for set up and support, it would reduce the distance that supplies need to be hauled across the country-side. But the strategy should not end there. The U.S. military should actively monitor likely ambush areas along the supply lines and randomly target and eliminate ambush teams (lured by dummy convoys) with ground forces and close air-support. > > Political pressure should also be mounted on Karzai to use his family contacts and connections (like Commander Ruhullah) to bring more of the stakeholders to a negotiating table where broader rules and the distrubution of fees can be worked out or face a Summer 2012 withdrawal of all non-NATO U.S. forces. > > These should all be combined with concerted efforts to increase regular face-to-face (non-combat) contact with clans/villages in the Eastern region. There is no way to effectively police the Pakistan border, it’s just far too big. If you’re looking at people crossing the border via a drone, how can you tell who are insurgents/terrorists and who aren’t? Of course you can’t, effective policing is impossible. There’s no way to do the things you want us to do effectively or we’d be doing them. There is no military solution to Afghanistan at all. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/28 "2009-11-16T23:57:01Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > To win in Afghanistan, we have to help them get rich. If they don’t see any benefit to them for us being there, they wont want us. > > Build schools. Buy local goods. Build civilian infrastructure. A thousand Taliban attacks a year can’t crack the resolve of wealthy people who want to protect their stuff. If the Afghans stay poor, we’re gonna lose. Agreed! Unfortunately the country currently lacks the infrastructure to access much of their potential [mineral wealth](http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2007/3063/). Fostering civilian, social, legal, political, and physical infrastucture in Afghanistan is the only way the U.S. can leave the country in a stable enough condition for Afghans to have the incentive and means of resisting fundementalist extremism. > [@gravitycrash](#): > > I’m probably one of the biggest hawks on this board. There isn’t anything to win in Afghanistan. > > \ > > Get out now. The U.S. war hawks of the last Administration have brought us and our allies in NATO to this point and we all have spilled blood for this cause. Should we simply abandon them there now? Is this not also an investment in our own national security? I understand that the strategic goals of the U.S. military in Afghanistan following the Coalition’s removal of the Taliban regime has been vague (at best) and perhaps even naive. The goal of pacifying and democratizing the entire country by an occupying military force is irresponsible. But if the U.S. forces can stabilize a region of the country and allow Afghans to utilize their own natural resources to prosper in it, they will create a template which other regions can use/modify to create their own success. As **Mosier** pointed out, protecting personal wealth will be the incentive for Afghans to fiercly resist a re-take over by the extremist. Perhaps the U.S. military experts may decide that the _entire_ Eastern region is too large of an objective and just focus on the mineral-rich North-East to North West region. 100K troops with adequate support and a clearly defined objective _can_ get much done. IMO they have had not had either (adequate support, clearly defined objective) in the last 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/29 "2009-12-02T02:27:59Z")
So, 30K more troops on a rapid deployment schedule and a Fall 2011 exit. It could work…but the clock is running…fast. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/30 "2009-12-02T02:53:03Z")
> [@cn8of10](#): > > But if the U.S. forces can stabilize a region of the country and allow Afghans to utilize their own natural resources to prosper in it, they will create a template which other regions can use/modify to create their own success. [I think they already figured that out.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARAMCO) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/31 "2009-12-02T03:27:02Z")
Building schools and infrastructure sounds good until you realize they have nobody to sustain them. It is a country run by local war lords who sell themselves to the highest bidder. The government is illegitimate and the people know it. They are divorced from the international politics that is changing their country. The median. age is 17.6. 44 percent of the population is under 14 yrs old. life expectancy is 45 28 percent literacy rate 12 % of the land is arable The education system is broken. When we are done they will just fall back to where they were. I know we want to do something to stop them from supporting Al Quada . That is not hard. Just pay higher bribes. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/32 "2009-12-02T08:49:00Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > [I think they already figured that out.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARAMCO) Unfortunately Afghanistan does not have any known oil or gas reserves. They do have mineral deposits that can be extracted. Yet none of this can be done on a scale to benefit the general Afghan population until there is enough security for business to survive. Concentrating all U.S. troops in the North and North-East region of the country can secure the area enough for businesses to flourish, NGOs to operate safely, concerted literacy programs to take root, stable government systems to be initiated, etc., all the fundamentals for the Afghans to replicate on their own on a larger scale throughout the country. This would also enable a lot of non-combat face-to-face interaction between U.S. soldiers and locals while providing an excellent setting for training large groups of local militia and police forces to maintain the security after U.S. military withdrawal. Afghanistan just seems too large and sparsely populated to execute any worthwhile attainable objective on a country-wide scale, especially considering the time table that the POTUS laid out in the speech. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/33 "2009-12-05T17:22:22Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > To win in Afghanistan, we have to help them get rich. If they don’t see any benefit to them for us being there, they wont want us. > > Build schools. Buy local goods. Build civilian infrastructure. A thousand Taliban attacks a year can’t crack the resolve of wealthy people who want to protect their stuff. If the Afghans stay poor, we’re gonna lose. In order to bring their infrastructure up to date, you require someone to maintain and run it. Who would you propose do it? We spent billions in Iraq ,but the educated and middle class fled when we came in. I read that what we built is suffering because the Iraqis can not run or maintain it. The average Afghani is 15 years old. The ravages of generations of war, cull the strong and healthy out of schools and they wind up with a nation of unschooled kids. They are far away from being able to run their own country. They are good fighters though. The Karzai government runs a few cities and they are under siege. The people have no use for a government that is so corrupt, but they can not even vote it out. We will spend billions of tax payer money bribing soldiers to switch sides. Soldiering is the only job available to those outside the cities. That is almost everybody. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/34 "2009-12-06T22:40:36Z")
Yemen has been heavily infiltrated by Al Queada and some think the government is about to fall. So a real Al Quada threat may occur on the peninsula. Do you think we should go right in? Do we blow the hell out of Afghanistan, where there are no Al Queada first? Your young Curtis. Don’t worry our policies will have a war for you when you are ready. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/35 "2009-12-07T01:12:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yemen has been heavily infiltrated by Al Queada and some think the government is about to fall. So a real Al Quada threat may occur on the peninsula. Do you think we should go right in? Do we blow the hell out of Afghanistan, where there are no Al Queada first? > Your young Curtis. Don’t worry our policies will have a war for you when you are ready. Yemen’s government is fairly stable and has been crushing the terrorists. But honestly I wish there was another Ataturk for the Arab world, if only Mubarak has a young and vigourous successor who would crush violent Islam in the Middle East with the blessing of the US…but would that happen since that would require some human rights violations and than the UN will b\*\*\*\*, whine, and moan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/36 "2009-12-07T01:22:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yemen’s government is fairly stable and has been crushing the terrorists. But honestly I wish there was another Ataturk for the Arab world, if only Mubarak has a young and vigourous successor who would crush violent Islam in the Middle East with the blessing of the US…but would that happen since that would require some human rights violations and than the UN will b\*\*\*\*, whine, and moan. :rolleyes: In other words, you want history to repeat itself. You want some US backed thug to ruthlessly crush the villains of the moment, and ten, twenty years in the future you’ll be surprised when people overthrow your pet thug and kill Americans in revenge. Much of our foreign policy problems have been dealing with the results of ideas like yours. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/37 "2009-12-07T01:23:37Z")
[Yemen teeters on brink of failure](http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-yemen-failed6-2009dec06,0,1224610.story) OK This story must be wrong then. or ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/38 "2009-12-07T01:44:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: In other words, you want history to repeat itself. You want some US backed thug to ruthlessly crush the villains of the moment, and ten, twenty years in the future you’ll be surprised when people overthrow your pet thug and kill Americans in revenge. Much of our foreign policy problems have been dealing with the results of ideas like yours. What about Ataturk? He not only succedeed but is one of the most beloved men in Turkey. Therefore the US must be careful for him not to look like a puppet and an independent man. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/39 "2009-12-07T01:47:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Yemen teeters on brink of failure](http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-yemen-failed6-2009dec06,0,1224610.story) OK This story must be wrong then. or Compared to Afghanistan it’s stable. The US will have to deal with this but I think this situation doesn’t require thousands of troops but economic aid, supplying arms to Yemen, and perhaps a few discreet assassinations and commadno operations. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431/40 "2009-12-07T01:55:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What about Ataturk? He not only succedeed but is one of the most beloved men in Turkey. Therefore the US must be careful for him not to look like a puppet and an independent man. That never works. People aren’t morons; if someone gets aid from the US, and ruthlessly crushes people the US doesn’t like then everyone will know he’s a US puppet. And anyone who isn’t a puppet is going to hate us, because we deserve it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winning-the-war-in-afghanistan-how/517431.md?page=3)