# Wins Shares, glorious Win Shares!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936 "2008-12-12T20:50:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936/61 "2009-01-05T14:35:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > His performance in New York might not have been good, but if it’s as bad as you describe it prepresents a truly amazing, almost Jekyll-and-Hyde transformation from the player who … **Rick** , just to give you a sense that it’s not just my subjective opinion here. [I never posted to this thread](http://www.ultimatemets.com/profile.php?PlayerCode=0670&tabno=7), but WOW are there a lot of irate Mets fans here! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936/62 "2009-01-05T14:44:23Z")
At the very beginning of the thread: “Looks like a trade that had to be made. You can pencil in Alomar’s 2002 stats .300 avg, 20 Hrs, 90 RBI’s, 30 steals, 100 runs, and a Gold Glove.” How much of the negativity is just disappointed high expectations? Most of the comments arew “He’s not playing well enough.” Well, we knew that. The Mets acquired an old second baseman. Classic high-risk move. I mean, it sucks that they got an All-Star and he lost it, but what does this have to do with anything aside from the Mets making the mistake of hiring an old guy? Jeez, some people in the thread are saying TONY FERNANDEZ was a bum. Are you kiddin’ me? Tony Fernandez busted his ass. I’m not denying Met fans might hate him, but the guy wasn’t a bum if you look at the other 15-and-a-half years of his career. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936/63 "2009-01-05T14:52:52Z")
Mets fans, though, use Fernandez as a synonym for “bum.” “Get outta bed, ya Tony Fernandez, you’re wasting the whole day.” “I hadda step over a Tony Hernandez in the subway yesterday.” “I got a Tony Fernandez knee.” Like that. You don’t believe me, read the same website on TF. I haven’t seen it myself, but I’m pretty sure you’ll find wall-to-wall abuse. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936/64 "2009-11-01T15:32:05Z")
Hope this isn’t so old as to be a zombie thread, but I just read on James’ (proprietry) site, an extensive essay “Sandy or Pedro?” by a guy named Dave Fleming, that reminded me of this thread, or where it began anyway. James recently wrote on his site that it was okay to quote excerpts, and I’d recommend it highly if you’re interested in quality reading about baseball or sabrmetrics, so maybe he wouldn’t mind this excerpt appearing here (and maybe Mods wouldn’t consider this free advertising for James’ site? I certainly have nothing to do with it, other than simply enjoying reading it). Anyway, here’s the concluding excerpt: > [@](#): > > One could argue that Koufax, playing in a league that had ten teams, probably played against better players. That said, baseball in Pedro’s time drew from a far wider base of talent than baseball in Koufax’s time. And the adoption of weight lifting and conditioning among hitter certainly suggests that Pedro’s had his own challenges. > > Post-season play deserves a mention. Koufax’s Dodgers went to three World Series’ during his five peak seasons, winning two championships. And Koufax pitched brilliantly: he posted an ERA under 1.00 in seven starts. > > During his peak years, Pedro’s teams went to the postseason in 1998, 1999, and 2003. The Red Sox played in five series’, winning two and losing three. Pedro’s record during his seven starts was 4-1 with a 3.11 ERA. > > Who You Gonna Take? > > The biggest context in Koufax’s favor is the overwhelming degree to which most baseball fans think he had the greatest peak of all-time. It is accepted as truth the same way that my grandfather’s generation accepted that DiMaggio was greater than Williams. The same way that sportswriters knew that Pete Rose embodied the best qualities of the game. The same way we all assume that Lou Gehrig is the greatest first baseman of all-time. Say something enough and it becomes true. It becomes fact. > > Do I think Koufax had the greatest peak of all-time? > > One more table should answer that. The first- and second-place finishers in ERA, in the years Koufax and Pedro led their leagues in ERA: > > 1962 1997 > Sandy Koufax 2.54 Pedro Martinez 1.90 > Bob Shaw 2.80 Greg Maddux 2.21 > 1963 1999 > Sandy Koufax 1.88 Pedro Martinez 2.07 > Dick Ellsworth 2.11 David Cone 3.45 > 1964 2000 > Sandy Koufax 1.74 Pedro Martinez 1.74 > Don Drysdale 2.18 Roger Clemens 3.70 > 1965 2002 > Sandy Koufax 2.04 Pedro Martinez 2.26 > Juan Marichal 2.13 Derek Lowe 2.58 > 1966 2003 > Sandy Koufax 1.73 Pedro Martinez 2.22 > Mike Cueller 2.22 Tim Hudson 2.70 > > The largest distance between Koufax and his nearest competitor in ERA is forty-nine points, when he was out ahead of Mike Cueller in 1966. But the largest distance between Pedro and his nearest competitor is one-hundred and ninety-six points, when he lapped Roger Clemens and the rest of the AL in 2000. > > Koufax, in his prime, was one of the greatest pitchers anyone’s ever seen. All poetry aside, Pedro was even better. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936/65 "2009-11-01T17:27:54Z")
I’m not absolutely sold on that comparison. Inning for inning, let’s assume Pedro was better. Problem is, they didn’t pitch the same number of innings. Koufax in his five best seasons pitched 1376 innings; Pedro pitched 1058, a difference of 318 innings, which is one whole Koufax year or one and a half Pedro years. Like it or not, that makes a pretty huge difference. I acknowledge that pitchers in Koufax’s time pitched more innings, but there’s two problems with that line of argument: 1. Koufax was fairly durable even by the standards of his time, twice leading the league in innings and complete games. Pedro not as much. 2. Like it or not, starting pitchers are not as valuable as they used to be. In the era of 4-man rotations one starting pitcher was worth more than one today. That’s not Pedro Martinez’s fault, and has nothing to do with his ability, but it’s a fact that affects how valuable he was. As innings are being spread out more, so must value and responsibility for winning and losing. I agree Martinez was a better pitcher game for game, inning for inning. But, inning for inning, the greatest pitcher of all time is **Mariano Rivera** , not Pedro. So why isn’t Rivera in this discussion? Well, because it’s just assumed his lack of innings makes himn less valuable than Pedro, and that’s correct. But the same issue also applies to the comparison between Pedro and Koufax. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wins-shares-glorious-win-shares/476936.md?page=3)