# Winter Flight Cancellations and Getting All Those People Where They're Going **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 21, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878 "2022-12-21T02:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/21 "2022-12-24T22:41:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Why does the industry do this overnight delay stuff? Because DOT counts a flight that departs _eventually_ as not being cancelled. Back in May I was supposed to fly on an early morning flight from LaCrosse, WI to Minneapolis. Except that flight was delayed due to some mechanical issue. Eventually they arranged for a bus to take us to Minneapolis as it only about a 2.5 hour drive. But as far as I know they never officially canceled the flight; it probably flew to MSP later that afternoon with like the two or three passengers who chose not to take the bus. I have heard that is pretty much Delta’s MO, never actually cancel a flight, even if it’s delayed to the point where it’s irrelevant to most of the passengers. Then they can brag about having the highest completion factor in the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/22 "2022-12-25T02:03:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But people who are traveling for a relatively short trips often just give up on it, since they might not be able to start their first leg for a few days. Just happened to a friend of mine this morning. Their morning flight to Denver was cancelled, next available slot of Southwest was Tuesday. Just not worth it for the 2 remaining days in Colorado, so they took a voucher for travel sometime down the road and headed to NH for some ice climbing instead. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/23 "2022-12-25T03:30:53Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Thanks for the detailed explanation. The whole thing about price is obvious. I guess the other point is that another aircraft costs so much, and more crews on standby cost a decent amount, that it’s cheaper to inconvenience a bunch of passengers than to pay for an extra plane or have another inactive crew on standby for any once-a-season really bad weather situation. (And in those situations, _one_ extra plane isn’t much of a difference.) Any business needs to make a profit. The airline industry has a lot _more_ spare assets and personnel paid to be on quick-response standby than does most of corporate America. The difference is that our product delivery chain is immediately visible to the consumer in real time, whereas in most businesses, a couple day’s disruption at a factory due to unplanned machinery downtime or in accounts payable due to a glut of illness among the clerks is completely invisible to the outside world. They’ll get the machinery fixed or the checks mailed out a few days late, but it’ll all wash out in the sauce soon enough. In a different sense, having spare stuff on standby is a form of insurance. You pay the premium every day whether you use the spare asset or not. Some insurance is a good idea. Insuring away the 99th percentile of your risks may enhance reliability, but the monster premiums will eat your profits. That’s true no matter what business you’re in. The whole point of “just-in-time” delivery was that factories & distribution centers holding stock of parts or of finished goods “just in case” was an example of an insurance premium paid day in and day out, year in and year out, that rarely actually paid off. So for the last 30+ years now we’ve been squeezing all that insurance out of supply chains & pocketing the savings. Either business pocketed it in the form of greater profit, or consumers pocketed it in the form of lower prices. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/24 "2022-12-25T03:32:32Z")
Well we just got nailed. We’re supposed to fly out of Midway Chicago to Phoenix at 9:20 pm. Then 10:30. Then 11:20. Then canceled. Still figuring out what to do. No Southwest flight from here to there until Wednesday. Milwaukee not looking better. Might have to fly out of Green Bay. Wife is standing in line to talk to a gate agent while I’m entertaining kids outside of the airport. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/25 "2022-12-25T03:38:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Wife is standing in line to talk to a gate agent while I’m entertaining kids outside of the airport. At most airlines the best way to deal with disrupted plans is via the website. Second best is calling the central 800 number. The worst thing to do is stand in a line at the airport. Why is that worst? That’s where there are a) LOTS of people with the same problems, and b) little to no excess capacity of workers to fix the problems. Meanwhile the call centers and websites have all their usual capacity (or more) and are not facing a local glut of people with problems. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/26 "2022-12-25T03:39:25Z")
We started with both to no help (Phone just hung up on us.) Hence why three as option there. We don’t have much of any choice. We figured we may actually talk to a human. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/27 "2022-12-25T03:44:21Z")
I just don’t think there’s any reasonable way out of here for several days. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/28 "2022-12-25T03:50:01Z")
Yeah. I’ve seen that too. While standing in the line to see an agent face to face there’s no reason not to be on hold on the 800 number _and_ pecking on your airline’s website with your phone browser. Big enough bad enough weather can overwhelm all three avenues for assistance. At least you know you’ll _eventually_ get to the front of the in-person line. Whereas websites can keep crashing mid-transaction and phone queues can keep hanging up on you indefinitely. Story time: My son-in-law flew in from ORD on the 23rd. He was booked on a morning flight but they called him the evening prior (22nd) to notify him it was cancelled and they’d rebooked him on a mid-afternoon flight. Which operated about 30 minutes late, but did get here with him on it. When we met up here in Florida I pointed out that the only reason he got on that flight is that he’s a Super Duper Insane Priority Frequent Flyer on that airline. And so they took _very_ extra special care of him and threw some ordinary paying customer off the later flight to free up a seat for him. He mentioned noticing there were 100+ people on the standby list for the full flight of a jet with ~180 seats. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/29 "2022-12-25T03:55:22Z")
Websites and rebooking no dice for us. I’ll try continuing to call. Thanks. I’m pretty much resigned that we may have to just scrap this trip and take it in the spring, or have a much abbreviated one. No sense in getting upset about it. Things happen. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/30 "2022-12-25T04:50:26Z")
OK, managed to find something Tuesday evening out of O’Hare via American on Priceline, so better later than never, and it won’t require us to drive several hours out of the way. Christmas with the in-laws would have been nice but shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/31 "2022-12-27T03:18:29Z")
Well, turns out we weren’t the only ones with issues with trying to talk to customer service on the phone or on the website: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flight-cancellations-christmas-2022-winter-storm/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flight-cancellations-christmas-2022-winter-storm/index.html) > She said passengers have told them throughout the day that they’re standing in line to speak with a person, as most people have been unsuccessful reaching representatives over the phone and the website is not operational The person before my wife in line was on the phone for two hours to no avail. That article says one person was on hold for TEN hours. What a shitshow that all was. My wife standing in line did yield us a #1 standby slot for earlier today (5 a.m.). Unfortunately, by the time last night rolled around, we got bumped down to 22 because of I assume A-list members and all that. We scrapped the idea of waiting at the airport and just trying our luck, but one of us would have made it (which was pointless with two adults and two kids) as we noted number 26 was the last to get a seat. And we would have had to have dealt with Midway and the stranded passenger craziness of all that. Let’s hope American out of O’Hare goes smoothly tomorrow (which I think it will.) What the hell happened? I read that just today Southwest accounted for more than 50% of the world’s airline cancellations. And 70% of its flights for the day. We got stranded on Christmas Eve, and it wasn’t that level. This is Boxing Day. I like Southwest; I’ve never had issues with them but, damn, what is going on? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/32 "2022-12-27T03:40:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I like Southwest; I’ve never had issues with them but, damn, what is going on? Planes and crew out of position because of previous and ongoing delays. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/33 "2022-12-27T03:45:18Z")
I’m just wondering why they got caught off balance so much versus everyone else, who seems to be fine in comparison. I mean, in other words, no kidding there is a cascade effect and delays propagate and all that. I know that. But this doesn’t seem to track with the issues its peers had. > Southwest’s problems continued on Monday while other carriers stabilized. The carrier had canceled more than 2,800 flights, 70% of its schedule, and 670 others were delayed. In comparison, Delta had canceled 9% of its mainline flights on Monday, United 5% and American less than 1% with 12 flights scrubbed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/34 "2022-12-27T03:48:39Z")
From _The New York Times_: Chris Perry, a spokesman for Southwest, said that the airline was “experiencing disruptions across our network” as a result of the winter storms. “Our biggest issue at this time is getting our crews and our aircraft in the right places,” Mr. Perry said in an email… An airline analyst… said **Southwest’s network is organized in what is known as a point-to-point system, which enables higher use of planes during normal times but can cause cascading negative effects when things go wrong. “It comes down to the structure of Southwest’s network and its exposure to hard hit areas like Chicago and Denver,”** … [the U.S. Department of Transportation] it was “concerned by Southwest’s unacceptable rate of cancellations and delays.”and will examine whether cancellations were controllable and if Southwest is complying with its customer service plan.” Among the hardest-hit airports were the Denver, Las Vegas, Dallas, Phoenix and Baltimore airports, all of which had more than 100 canceled departing flights as of Monday night, as did Chicago Midway International Airport. Denver alone had more than 220 canceled flights, making up nearly a quarter of its scheduled outbound trips. > **[Thousands of Canceled Flights Cap Holiday Weekend of Travel Nightmares](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/26/us/flights-canceled-holiday-travel.html)** > > Southwest Airlines, which canceled about 70 percent of its flights, was the airline most affected on Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/35 "2022-12-27T03:58:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m just wondering why they got caught off balance so much versus everyone else, who seems to be fine in comparison. Southwest seems pretty optimized; I haven’t flown much in the last few years but back when I flew on an almost weekly basis, Southwest flights were reliably ones where the flight attendant would announce, “This is a completely full flight…” And if you follow the flight numbers, you have one aircraft flying a set of 4-6 airports in a day with maybe one crew change. Which means that if you have a large number of delays one day, you have a bunch of crews out of position for the next day, so even if you can swap planes around you don’t have the crew to staff them until you can deadhead them to where they are needed. That’s just my speculation; I’m sure @LSLGuy has a more informed answer. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/36 "2022-12-27T04:42:55Z")
Southwest just cancelled most of the flights to MSP tomorrow - including my son’s flight home. Of course we are anticipating them cancelling all of them tomorrow or at best our son won’t be able to make it on the one or two flights that make it out so $600 later he’s got a flight on United and I guess we will get some sort of refund eventually. And despite Southwest Airlines claiming it’s weather, it is all due to a lack of personnel and rumors say that Southwest laid off too many people to handle staffing. All I know is they are rapidly burning through all of the goodwill they have built over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/37 "2022-12-27T05:10:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Southwest just cancelled most of the flights to MSP tomorrow - including my son’s flight home. Of course we are anticipating them cancelling all of them tomorrow or at best our son won’t be able to make it on the one or two flights that make it out so $600 later he’s got a flight on United and I guess we will get some sort of refund eventually. My mother was scheduled to fly out of San Diego on SW tomorrow, but she’s been rescheduled for Saturday. She’s retired, and staying with family over there, so this is more of an inconvenience than anything. But, wow, if I was scheduled to come back from vacation, this would be a real hardship for me. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/38 "2022-12-27T05:24:50Z")
I wonder if it has something to do with how Southwest schedules flights versus other airlines. A plane might fly from A to B to C to D in one day, so if there’s a weather event at airport A, all the flights are affected. In my observation other airlines seem to do more out and back scheduling, where a plane flies from a hub out to a spoke, then turns around and flies back to the same hub it started from. I’m sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both types of scheduling, but an advantage of the latter is that a storm at a hub mostly just affects flights to and from that hub. Or it could be staffing like someone else mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/39 "2022-12-27T05:44:51Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I wonder if it has something to do with how Southwest schedules flights versus other airlines. A plane might fly from A to B to C to D in one day, so if there’s a weather event at airport A, all the flights are affected. Then the failure is to not build in contingency plans. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878/40 "2022-12-27T12:20:30Z")
My son and daughter-in-law got notified their SWA flight from KC to Dallas was cancelled as they were checking in last night (24 hours in advance of the flight today). No flights available until 12/31, and they need to drive from Dallas to Delaware starting 1/1 to start new jobs. The best they could do on alternate flights were singles on American for $1,600+, non-direct. They’ve rented a car and will be driving back starting mid-morning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/winter-flight-cancellations-and-getting-all-those-people-where-theyre-going/976878.md?page=3)