Agree. Dismissing the CEO at a time like this is probably a bad idea. You get rid of him, who is gonna take his place and have any effectiveness right away? No, the best thing to do when something blows-up is keep people in place to fix it and then sort out who gets fired later, unless the people involved are total f-ups. The CEO and management at SWA are probably the in the best position to clean up this mess, short-term.
I’m having trouble wrapping my head around why point-to-point vs hub and spoke might be better/worse in some situations. Anyone able to dumb that down for me? I’ll split it off if preferred.
Separately, I’ve heard that Southwest doesn’t have “interline agreements” that other major airlines have, but I can’t tell how much that might contribute. I don’t expect the other airlines had a lot of extra capacity these last couple weeks.
I think it would be about as easy to get everybody to move to the Southern Hemisphere.
I’m sure others can state it better than I. You might know more about it than I do.
Hub means most flights are either to or from the hub - specific cities such as Atlanta or Dallas. If the hub is experiencing bad weather, all the flights are affected or the airline needs alternative hubs in place. If the hub is fine, only airports affected by bad weather are impacted, but if the area of bad weather is large this can still be very significant. Presumably most staff live around the hub cities.
Point to point means A to B to C to D. SW in particular tried to fit more flights into the day. Like Christmas tree lights, any part of the chain with delays all subsequent parts once passed whatever you can scrape together for contingency. Such a system has less redundancy and more complicated luggage handling. If bad weather affects a huge percentage of airports, most flights will be affected.
I really don’t like the thesis presented here - that if you buy an airline ticket it’s on you to have backups and further backups. You should have multiple hotel points and airline miles, know how to use various apps, and have contingency plans.
I fly chartered jets, and if we are unable to get our passengers somewhere… we get them there another way. Another plane from our company, another plane from a different company (called off-fleeting), via airline, bus, car, on an effing pogo stick if it comes to it. But we will take care of our customers.
I realize this isn’t realistic on the scale of major airlines, and with what people pay for airline tickets. But still… this idea that these companies would much rather wash their hands of these problems and put it all on the customers. My company has a whole department of travel experts who get airline tickets for people because the system is complex and can be daunting.
“Let the buyer beware” isn’t a strategy we should all shrug and accept. This whole thing just feels terrible.
I haven’t flown in the USA for a very long time. So this is a bit of a naive question.
But how do the carriers manage long term loyal and business class travellers when everything falls apart? Whilst there is a race to the bottom in fare discounting, there are, I would imagine, still a significant set of people who can afford to pay more, and would probably expect a better outcome.
Context: Many years ago we used to teach in Singapore over a weekend. Then fly home on the Monday with a flight that got us home late evening. Two flights, Singapore - Perth, then a domestic flight Perth - Adelaide. There is a risk in this route, in that it is not uncommon for the jetstream to be so strong that the Adelaide - Perth flight has a really difficult time making it, and may arrive significantly late. Then there is a curfew in Adelaide, after which jet planes may not land. So one day, we arrived from Singapore, and sat waiting in the club lounge for our flight home, only to keep being told that the plane servicing the flight was delayed arriving. So of course it arrived so late that we could not make it home before the curfew and had to wait until morning. Those of us with appropriate standing with the airline were offered a hotel room and flight of our choice home in the morning. One colleague was not so lucky. He didn’t have the same standing with the airline, and was given an overnight flight to Canberra, thence another flight to Melbourne, and another flight, Melbourne to Adelaide. Something like 8 hours in airplanes and airports, whilst we slept in a hotel bed. He was not happy. Same flight, same bookings, very different outcome and customer experience.
So how do US airlines treat different customers? Eventually the question becomes - is there a business case or existing airline that, for more money (where more is not insanely more) to know you won’t be (or much less likely to be) stranded without any useful hope and customer service is till a thing?
Southwest, as a discount airline, does not have classes on their airplanes. They dont even assign seats. It’s like a flying bus. They do have a loyalty program, and offer early boarding privileges as a way to chisel more money from your wallet, but other than providing you a seat at a cheap price, they dont provide much else, and certainly nothing beyond the minimum standards by law. Their openly advertising refunds and compensation for their massive f-up this week is a surprise, and unusual, IMHO.
Other airlines do have perks like private lounges at some airports for their business/1st class customers. People who value that sort of thing and can afford it typically dont fly a discount airline. All airlines will try to help you out if there is a delay, but the scope of the problems this week far outstripped Southwest’s ability to help any one of their customers.
From what I understand, if the cancellation is due to the airline then they put you up in a hotel (e.g. equipment malfunction). If it’s from something that’s out of the airline’s control, like weather, you’re on your own. Maybe if you’re someone who does stuff like typically flies 1st class the airline will make special accommodations to put you up or get you to your destination, but would assume that’s at their discretion.
I can only speak for my experience with second-highest status on American.
There is a less crowded (or possibly better staffed) number I can call. Also, the agents in the lounge are much better and much less stressed than the ones out in the wild. One of the agents in the lounge told me that it’s the best assignment, and you have to treat the customers well in order to keep it.
While I have criticisms of American, they generally have treated me fairly well with rebooking at no charge. I also board in group 2, so I always get overhead space.
I hope that doesn’t sound like boasting- I’d be happy to never set foot on another airplane, and don’t consider status something to boast about. After all, I only have it because my company has paid so much to the airline.
Or a return to older standards. Southwest was a discount airline but not a no-frills airline who’d charge you for the air you breathe if they could, like Spirit or Ryanair. No assigned seats but that’s a plus in the eyes of many folks. Semi-assigned seating (not specific seats but at least ‘regions’ on the plane) was one of the experiments they ran at some point in the last 20 years but they got a lot of pushback from their own customers. They continue to run tests for it to see if it may play better in some markets (say California vs Texas) than others or for certain groups (military, families, etc).
They were built on a reputation of low cost but good customer service. Both have clearly suffered in recent years but some of that DNA does persist. And, for whatever reason, they don’t charge luggage fees - though checked bags are a major issue with this latest disaster and some folks may not get their bags for several weeks, if at all.
Like a lot of companies, I’d say the Southwest front line staff really are trying to be as helpful to customers as possible and they’ve historically been trained that way, but they can’t make up for years of incompetence/malfeasance at the corporate level.
Yes and no, these days. They still let you check two (non-oversized) bags for free, but if you have to check a third bag, or if one of your two bags is oversized, it’s $75.
“Bags fly free” was one of their key advertising messages (and points of differentiation) for several years, in response to the other major U.S. airlines starting to largely charge for checking anything, but I don’t know if they use that tagline anymore (maybe because bags don’t always fly free anymore).
That’s just a yes then. Even before the ‘new’ (only ~15 years now) introduction of baggage fees for all checked luggage on major carriers, all airlines had a hard weight limit and usually allowed at least 1 (though usually 2 for major airlines) free checked bags. They’ve all had fees for 3rd bags and overweight bags for longer than I’ve been alive.
SWA basically kept to the historic pattern. “Bags Fly Free” is still the policy with the traditional caveats on excess number or weight resulting in fees. That’s incredibly reasonable, to be honest. There’s no reason you should be able to buy an airline ticket, pack up your house, and expect the airline to ferry all your worldly possessions across the country for free.
Once a flight I was booked on had a large number of standbys. The previous day’s flight had been canceled because of a major snowstorm in Montreal. I asked the gate agent how they decide who gets seated. She explained that it was on the basis of how much they had paid for the tickets.
Now I always pay a little extra, not for a better class, but for what they call, IIRC, premium tickets. They allow me to choose seats, change flights without a fee and check one bag for “free”. But also would give me some priority in case of a canceled flight. Of course, first class would be even better, but the price jump is outrageous.
The SW flight that left from my gate at Vegas just before ours today went to Phoenix, Austin, and then Indianapolis. Thus there is a lot more chance that weather will affect one of those legs than with a hub and spoke system.
Plus there are a single digit number of passengers who stay on the plane over more than one of these legs. SW asks passengers staying on to stay put and they usually say how many that is. I did three legs once and very few people stayed around.
BTW, SW today was pretty much back to normal. All our flights were on time, and not even more than normally crowded. I was a bit surprised that the planes were not totally full of refugees from canceled flights.
As for alternatives, I checked Delta, which was a good alternate, and everything was booked until Jan. 3. Perhaps that was from SW passengers.
As someone who is eligible for a refund and compensation for buying a second ticket, I’ll wait and see what sort of restrictions there are for them to weasel out of it. I’ll report back fairly when I know although it might be a while - not for us submitting but for us to get a response and the $.
As for Jordan’s apology, I saw it and it reminded me of this
(Warning: Bare cartoon butt)
Not only refunds and expense reimbursements, Southwest passengers are going to get 25,000 Thank You points [worth about $300]
Under the agreement announced Monday, Dallas-based Southwest is required to establish a $90 million compensation system for future passengers affected by significant delays and cancellations, which counts as part of the $140 million penalty. The airline will also pay $35 million in cash to the U.S. Treasury, spread out over three years.
Has Southwest improved its procedures/technology so such a massive delay won’t happen again?
This thread feels topical, as I’m about to fly to Tampa, and a but later, i plan to fly to Indianapolis for the eclipse.
The “pay more for priority” works. By the time i booked my eclipse flight, everything was mostly sold out and my tickets were very expensive. A week later, my Indy flight was cancelled by the airline. They basically rescheduled the day, and now there’s only one direct flight. I’m cranky that we now have to leave uncomfortably early in the morning. But the four of us were moved intact, to the same four seats i selected, on the remaining direct flight.
And first class gets even better treatment. I once booked a flight where for reasons, one leg ended up first class. There was some issue, and our flight was cancelled. But i was able to use the short “first class” line and the agent walked us to another airline, where they bumped some of their passengers to put us on that flight.
I mostly buy the “more legroom” seats these days, and i always pay enough to get an assigned seat up front.