# Wis. GOP strips public workers' bargaining rights (not want to...did it) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119 "2011-03-10T02:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/1 "2011-03-10T02:07:06Z")
I confess I am unsure exactly what happened here. For debate is this legal? Will the protesters go home in defeat now or will this inflame people? > [@](#): > > MADISON, Wis. – Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber’s missing Democrats. > > \ > > The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later. > > The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Peter Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state’s open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate convened within minutes and passed the measure without discussion or debate. > > SOURCE: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us\_wisconsin\_budget\_unions](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/2 "2011-03-10T02:09:06Z")
> **[Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600098)** > > Is anyone surprised by these weasels? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41996994/ns/politics-more\_politics/ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/3 "2011-03-10T02:16:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600098) Doh! Sorry…didn’t look in the Pit. Seems a decidedly GD topic. My bad. Mods close this since it is a duplicate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/4 "2011-03-10T13:01:19Z")
If you choose to absent yourself from the proceedings in an effort to block their progress, it is difficult to be sympathetic to your protests that you aren’t getting your chance to participate. The Dems tried to play games, and lost. Boo hoo. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/5 "2011-03-10T13:25:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you choose to absent yourself from the proceedings in an effort to block their progress, it is difficult to be sympathetic to your protests that you aren’t getting your chance to participate. > > The Dems tried to play games, and lost. Boo hoo. > > Regards, > Shodan Was this particular “Boo hoo” directed at just the Democrats, or are all the people who lost their collective bargaining rights included too? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/6 "2011-03-10T13:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The Dems tried to play games, and lost. Boo hoo. Which part was unclear? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/7 "2011-03-10T13:40:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which part was unclear? > > Regards, > Shodan The part about violating the Wisconsin Open Meetings Law to shit on the voters. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/8 "2011-03-10T13:56:23Z")
Then by all means provide a cite that the WI GOP has been found to have violated that law. And by a credible source, not the whiny sore losers of the WI Dems. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/9 "2011-03-10T14:01:08Z")
What is the Open Meeting law, and why is it alleged to be significant here? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/10 "2011-03-10T14:20:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What is the Open Meeting law, and why is it alleged to be significant here? It’s codified at Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98. It generally provides that governmental bodies cannot meet in secret, but must publish notice of their meetings and the agenda thereof in advance of such meetings. However, the legislature chose to except itself from such requirements by its own rules, as § 19.87 provides _inter alia_: > [@Wis Stat § 19.87(2)](#): > > No provision of this subchapter which conflicts with a rule of the senate or assembly or joint rule of the legislature shall apply to a meeting conducted in compliance with such rule. As long as the vote was in compliance with the rules of the senate, the open meetings law does not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/11 "2011-03-10T14:26:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s codified at Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98. It generally provides that governmental bodies cannot meet in secret, but must publish notice of their meetings and the agenda thereof in advance of such meetings. > > However, the legislature chose to except itself from such requirements by its own rules, as § 19.87 provides _inter alia_: > > As long as the vote was in compliance with the rules of the senate, the open meetings law does not apply. Color me confused. (really asking here…I am not arguing anything) There is a rule which says they must publish notice of their meetings and agenda and another rule which says they don’t have to abide by any rules previously listed? What does, “No provision of this subchapter which conflicts with a rule of the senate or assembly or joint rule of the legislature shall apply to a meeting conducted in compliance with such rule” mean? Sounds like nothing that conflicts with the rules applies as long as they comply with the rules. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/12 "2011-03-10T14:27:27Z")
I’ve only sort of been following this, but can someone summarize what “collective bargaining rights” are? Since they’ve been lost, what stops the teachers from all getting togeather and simply saying they won’t work unless X,Y and Z are in their contract? Surely the State can’t _make_ them work if they don’t want to, or forbid them from meeting to collude on what terms they want in their contracts? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/13 "2011-03-10T14:31:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Color me confused. (really asking here…I am not arguing anything) > > There is a rule which says they must publish notice of their meetings and agenda and another rule which says they don’t have to abide by any rules previously listed? > > What does, “No provision of this subchapter which conflicts with a rule of the senate or assembly or joint rule of the legislature shall apply to a meeting conducted in compliance with such rule” mean? > > Sounds like nothing that conflicts with the rules applies as long as they comply with the rules. > > Huh? “This subchanter” refers to the requirements in the open meetings law, Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98. “A rule of the senate” refers to a rule made internally by the senate. As long as a meeting is conducted in compliance with a rule of the senate, the open meeting law of Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98 doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/14 "2011-03-10T14:35:30Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’ve only sort of been following this, but can someone summarize what “collective bargaining rights” are? Since they’ve been lost, what stops the teachers from all getting togeather and simply saying they won’t work unless X,Y and Z are in their contract? Surely the State can’t _make_ them work if they don’t want to, or forbid them from meeting to collude on what terms they want in their contracts? Sure, the state can’t make them work. However, they aren’t guaranteed jobs either if they walk out. Teachers could be hired to replace those that walked out, and life would go on. As for how things would look without collective bargaining for public employees, I don’t have to look very far. That’s how it has been in Virginia since 1993 - that reform was passed here with overwhelming bipartisan support and was signed into law by Governor Wilder, a moderate Democrat. The sky hasn’t fallen in - indeed Virginia has a reputation for being a state with a well-managed government. Teacher pay has to stay relatively high so that recruitment of teachers to schools here can succeed. So there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/15 "2011-03-10T14:52:10Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > The sky hasn’t fallen in - indeed Virginia has a reputation for being a state with a well-managed government. Teacher pay has to stay relatively high so that recruitment of teachers to schools here can succeed. So there you go. So if it is no big deal and nothing has changed why do it? To remove political opposition maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/16 "2011-03-10T15:10:17Z")
In the case of Virginia it was to codify a decision of the state Supreme Court - so it didn’t make much of an overall difference. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/17 "2011-03-10T15:12:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “This subchanter” refers to the requirements in the open meetings law, Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98. > > “A rule of the senate” refers to a rule made internally by the senate. > > As long as a meeting is conducted in compliance with a rule of the senate, the open meeting law of Wis. Stat. §§ 19.81-19.98 doesn’t apply. So basically the senate rules trump the law? I realize the law stipulates the rules trump the law but then why make a law regarding this stuff then? Seems absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/18 "2011-03-10T15:16:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So basically the senate rules trump the law? > > I realize the law stipulates the rules trump the law but then why make a law regarding this stuff then? > > Seems absurd. Well, the law applies to other public meetings. School boards, water commissions, library boards, stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/19 "2011-03-10T15:21:24Z")
I suppose the real question is what are the current Wisconsin rules of the Senate and can they be changed on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119/20 "2011-03-10T15:29:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So basically the senate rules trump the law? > > I realize the law stipulates the rules trump the law but then why make a law regarding this stuff then? > > Seems absurd. No. The law is of general application: it covers all governmental bodies and any formally constituted subunits of those bodies. A state or local agency, board, commission, committee, council, department or public body corporate and politic created by constitution, statute, ordinance, rule or order; or a governmental or quasi-governmental corporation. Interestingly, the law also specifically excludes the Bradley center sports and entertainment corporation. So having reached far and wide, the law then notes any exceptions, like the Bradley Center… and the legislative houses. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wis-gop-strips-public-workers-bargaining-rights-not-want-to-did-it/574119.md?page=2)