# Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111 "2011-03-10T00:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/221 "2011-03-10T19:27:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > While I’m mostly on your side in the ideological debate here, you should be informed that **Bricker** isn’t white. He’s Hispanic. And he’s a Republican? That’s…special. it actually makes it worse. If he’s experienced racism against Hispanics, then to turn around and be as sexist as he is is extraordinarily hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/222 "2011-03-10T19:30:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How racist! > > I’m Hispanic, genius. I grew up in poverty. My dad came here from El Salvador with nothing. Gee, how would I know that? You side with rich white men, you defend rich white men, and you dish out discrimination an awful lot for somebody who must have experienced some of it himself. Reminds of Clarence Thomas, pulling the ladder up after he got his. You _are_ the perfect conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/223 "2011-03-10T19:33:14Z")
> [@Sully](#): > > Nice, using Scott Walker’s speech. You must be a huge fan. Ad hominem. This comment doesn’t rebut the argument I made. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/224 "2011-03-10T19:41:12Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Gee, how would I know that? You side with rich white men, you defend rich white men, and you dish out discrimination an awful lot for somebody who must have experienced some of it himself. Reminds of Clarence Thomas, pulling the ladder up after he got his. You _are_ the perfect conservative. Yes, I have experienced discrimination. Not so much these days, but when I was younger, I absolutely experienced discriminatory actions and attitudes. And you know what I did? I ran right to the government and screamed, “Waaah! protect me from these meanies!” Oh, no, wait. That wasn’t me. I took what my dad told me to heart: that the best way to handle that is to be better. That I might have to work harder to get somewhere. But that wasn’t bad – it was good. It meant I trained with weights on, as it were, while others ran without them. And at the end of the day, I was stronger as a result. I wish this had been my line, but it was actually my brother’s, after he pushed back against a teacher’s ignorant comment. I warned him about the consequences, and he said with perfect calmness, “If he doesn’t give me an A, he won;t be able to justify giving anyone in that class an A.” As you might imagine, he didn’t plan to get his A by threatening a lawsuit or a sit-in. He got his A by being the best in the class, period. Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally. That’s why I’m a conservative. I didn’t need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/225 "2011-03-10T19:41:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because: > > > [@](#): > > > > In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority. So, **Bricker** , because I’m not a douchebag, I’m assuming your objection to collective bargaining rights of public workers is not based solely on that one anecdote, or on the collected speeches of Scott Walker, but you’re citing the story as an example of how unions go ‘against the public interest’ so to speak. But you haven’t actually explained how the example works against the principle of collective bargaining. I’d like to know your specific objections, so that we can address the correct questions: whether seniority considerations are unique to union contracts and whether they have any utility for the greater public good and/or union members themselves, or whether staffing decisions are ever appropriate aspects of contractual terms and if so whether that is only _conditionally_ appropriate depending on how the contract is negotiated. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/226 "2011-03-10T19:44:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And what do you suppose the result was? > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Someone on the internet ignored you? Oh the humanity. No, far from it. Instead, I got lots of comments about how I should just let it go. It was over – did I have to be right all the time? Did I keep a list? Wow, obsess much? Who cares? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/227 "2011-03-10T19:47:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally. > > That’s why I’m a conservative. I didn’t need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall. Yes and you were lucky. There are a ton of people that worked just as hard as you that just managed to treat water. It’ the same old “I won because I kicked ass, they lost because they were lazy” argument. Because of course, if it weren’t that way and hard work didn’t guarantee your advancement… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/228 "2011-03-10T19:57:00Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Yes and you were lucky. There are a ton of people that worked just as hard as you that just managed to treat water. > > It’ the same old “I won because I kicked ass, they lost because they were lazy” argument. Because of course, if it weren’t that way and hard work didn’t guarantee your advancement… You know what that reminds me of? A had a friend in college who I helped move one day. As I was loading her trunk, I noticed her spare tire was flat. “Hey,” I said, “Did you know your spare tire is flat?” “Yeah, I know,” she said. “I’ll have to fix that one of these days.” A year later, she had a job interview for an on-campus position. I did too. There were filling three slots for a pretty menial job. I think there were about forty applicants. I got the job. She didn’t – in fact, she missed the interview. Why? She got a flat tire. Someone immediately stopped to help her (she was pretty cute, as it happens, and though I wasn’t there I suspect she had to wait about thirteen seconds for that assistance. He volunteered to change her tire, but… the spare was flat. “Man, I have the worst luck!” she told me. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/229 "2011-03-10T19:57:42Z")
> [@Sully](#): > > Wow, how very generous. Something akin to someone giving you a quarter as they are stealing your wallet. \*Yes, we know you are now working 60 hours a week so we can keep laying people off and you won’t say shit because we will then kick your ass to the curb, but hey, we have free coffee… > \* The list does not include the safer conditions in workplaces and child labor laws. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/230 "2011-03-10T20:00:50Z")
It always amuses me how **Bricker** , who admits to posting to the Dope from work a few times\*, chalks up his success to constant, devoted, single-minded effort. Well done, lad! Never in the history of hard work has anyone ever shown such hard work. \*OK, about 50,000 times. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/231 "2011-03-10T20:00:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So the consequence of being wrong for you is… ? Wisconsin remains a state whose government is having a fire sale, giving away everything to the Kochs. That’s definitely more than enough punishment. Some of us consider real-world penalties to be painful enough without adding silly games on top of them. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/232 "2011-03-10T20:06:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know what that reminds me of? > > A had a friend in college who I helped move one day. As I was loading her trunk, I noticed her spare tire was flat. “Hey,” I said, “Did you know your spare tire is flat?” > > “Yeah, I know,” she said. “I’ll have to fix that one of these days.” > > A year later, she had a job interview for an on-campus position. I did too. There were filling three slots for a pretty menial job. I think there were about forty applicants. > > I got the job. She didn’t – in fact, she missed the interview. Why? She got a flat tire. Someone immediately stopped to help her (she was pretty cute, as it happens, and though I wasn’t there I suspect she had to wait about thirteen seconds for that assistance. He volunteered to change her tire, but… the spare was flat. > > “Man, I have the worst luck!” she told me. And I’d be real impressed with that if all your friends with flat tires were obviously negligent. But you know when asked, a lot of very successful people have said that they attribute their success to hard work, keeping at it, AND luck. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/233 "2011-03-10T20:07:07Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > It always amuses me how **Bricker** , who admits to posting to the Dope from work a few times\*, chalks up his success to constant, devoted, single-minded effort. Well done, lad! Never in the history of hard work has anyone ever shown such hard work. > > \*OK, about 50,000 times. He only does it while he waits for his code to compile. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/234 "2011-03-10T20:07:19Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > It always amuses me how **Bricker** , who admits to posting to the Dope from work a few times\*, chalks up his success to constant, devoted, single-minded effort. Well done, lad! Never in the history of hard work has anyone ever shown such hard work. > > \*OK, about 50,000 times. 28,000 posts, yes. That is a lot. Er… spread out over ELEVEN AND A HALF YEARS. Somehow, that doesn’t seem to be as dramatic, does it? And I assure you that my current employer is very happy with my level and quality of work. Besides, they don’t dare fire me! I’m Hispanic! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/235 "2011-03-10T20:09:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally. > > That’s why I’m a conservative. I didn’t need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall. Ah, so, discrimination is tolerable and the government should ignore it because it is good for those who are discriminated against? That about the gist of it? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/236 "2011-03-10T20:10:00Z")
Whenever I hear “I lifted myself personally” I wonder what exactly the protagonist lifted himself _by_, and _up onto_ what exactly he scrambled. I suspect whatever prominences and outcroppings of the social landscape our hero grasped and scrabbled over to get to his higher ground owe their existence to at least a few weepy, crybaby liberal ‘victims’ -assuming the self bootstrapping occurred legally that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/237 "2011-03-10T20:11:33Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > And I’d be real impressed with that if all your friends with flat tires were obviously negligent. > > But you know when asked, a lot of very successful people have said that they attribute their success to hard work, keeping at it, AND luck. I expect the dramatically successful people – the CEOs, the A-list actors, and so forth, would say that, because to get from the middle ranks to the top requires luck. To be solidly successful as a upper-mid-tier performer? No, that is reachable without luck. Or, to put a finer point on it, it’s by people who make their own luck. You would say I’m lucky I had a spare that has air in it. Maybe so – but I check my spare every time I put gas in the car. I check my oil every time I put gas in my car. So the fact that I don’t find myself seizing the cylinders one day because my “Check Engine” light was blown out is “lucky.” Except that I made that luck happen. Sorry, I reject the random universe bullshit. You make your own luck. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/238 "2011-03-10T20:13:47Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Whenever I hear “I lifted myself personally” I wonder what exactly the protagonist lifted himself _by_, and _up onto_ what exactly he scrambled. I suspect whatever prominences and outcroppings of the social landscape our hero grasped and scrabbled over to get to his higher ground owe their existence to at least a few weepy, crybaby liberal ‘victims’ -assuming the self bootstrapping occurred legally that is. Suspect away. But it’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/239 "2011-03-10T20:14:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Ah, so, discrimination is tolerable and the government should ignore it because it is good for those who are discriminated against? > > That about the gist of it? I didn’t say that. I said that I, personally, have experienced discrimination and that I, personally, dealt with it without involving the government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/240 "2011-03-10T20:14:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How racist! > > I’m Hispanic, genius. I grew up in poverty. My dad came here from El Salvador with nothing. Funny, mine too. The reality does remain that many opportunities were open by people that did not wait for the government to give them opportunities, they protested and fought for them, and was not only against private industry, but to government as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=13)