# Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111 "2011-03-10T00:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/281 "2011-03-11T03:30:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because: …12% of all teachers in her district lost their jobs. 482 teachers are now out of work. Nine people got laid off at her school. How would you have decided which of those 482 teachers would get laid off? Its odd, I thought that someone with your outlook on the world would support freedom of association. Instead, because of one statistical anomaly with debatable connection to the union movement, you seek to deny people the right to choose their representation. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/282 "2011-03-11T03:38:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but you don’t strike me as someone I’d take business advice from. You’re an idiot. > > I work from 7 in the morning to 8:30 at night, usually. As a salaried employee, I earn no overtime. My employer gets more than eight hours per day from me, constantly. You know nothing and wouldn’t recognize hard work if it bit you. A useless and mediocre person, clamoring for the government to save you from your laziness and stupidity. You waste an hour a day you could be spending with your family to post on a messageboard, even though you already stay there over 12 hours a day, and I’M the idiot? Sorry, I’d rather work more efficiently and spend more time with my children. You’ll never get that time back, Rick. Spend the hour you post with your kid instead. Don’t call me an idiot for doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/283 "2011-03-11T04:13:20Z")
Christ, this thread is full of the usual idiots giving the usual business to a member of the usual group. The last page of this thread reads exactly like threads I’ve been the Bricker in (except I’m not hispanic, so there wasn’t that aspect). It’s pretty sad, really, to see that you morons never get enough bashing on people you’ll never understand. I hope Bricker will be smarter than I’ve been in these threads in the past and will just leave the rest of you to your petty bullshit. Your brand of ingrained ignorance isn’t fightable. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/284 "2011-03-11T04:14:56Z")
It’s good to know that, apparently, the biggest problem for Wisconsin unions is that Bricker’s dad worked a lot and that he might be a self-hating white hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/285 "2011-03-11T04:17:54Z")
Y’know, I look at the stuff quoted in post 258, and if true, I wonder why that is. I wonder how and why people think we’re better off for not having these things. I tried asking this in GD, but I wasn’t really satisfied with the answers I got. Maybe **Bricker** and those who agree with him can explain. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/286 "2011-03-11T04:26:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Your brand of ingrained ignorance isn’t fightable. And yet you continue to try. Isn’t that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/287 "2011-03-11T04:27:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Christ, this thread is full of the usual idiots giving the usual business to a member of the usual group. The last page of this thread reads exactly like threads I’ve been the Bricker in (except I’m not hispanic, so there wasn’t that aspect). It’s pretty sad, really, to see that you morons never get enough bashing on people you’ll never understand. > > I hope Bricker will be smarter than I’ve been in these threads in the past and will just leave the rest of you to your petty bullshit. Your brand of ingrained ignorance isn’t fightable. Unless you have learned anything about the damage that the tea party is causing by their anti-science certainty, it is certifiably true that it is you who is the moron. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/288 "2011-03-11T04:29:51Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Y’know, I look at the stuff quoted in post 258, and if true, I wonder why that is. I wonder how and why people think we’re better off for not having these things. I tried asking this in GD, but I wasn’t really satisfied with the answers I got. Maybe **Bricker** and those who agree with him can explain. Sure, I’ll try. I believe that freedom and choice are better than coercion and force. Now, sometimes people choose to harm others, so we have to use force to stop them. And sometimes people choose to not pay for things that benefit everyone, so we force them to pay. The fact that I like freedom and choice means that I think we should limit the force and coercion to only the bare minimum necessary. It should be used for only those things that are really necessary. So, now let’s talk about paid parental leave. A job is a relationship between two people, and generally those two people set the terms of the relationship (i.e., there is freedom and choice involved). That makes me happy, because I like freedom and choice. Now, someone comes along and says that there should be a law that requires employers to pay their employees while they don’t work for a certain amount of time after they have a kid. Some people ask “would society be a better place if people had paid parental leave?” and base their feelings about the law on their answer to that question. But I ask “is paid parental leave important enough to justify bringing coercion and force to bear on the freedom and choice exercised by the employer and employee?” And my answer is no–if someone wants paid parental leave, then they can bargain for it. Paid parental leave isn’t one of those very few things that it makes sense to use force over (like stopping people from hurting one another or funding a military to protect us from enemies). People who want it can obtain through freedom and choice–there’s no need to force others to give it to them. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/289 "2011-03-11T04:31:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Unless you have learned anything about the damage that the tea party is causing by their anti-science certainty, it is certifiably true that it is you who is the moron. You are anti-science, bud, we’ve been over this so many times. You have made up your mind and are closed off to the science. And the science doesn’t even speak on the ultimate issue (as you yourself have acknowledged). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/290 "2011-03-11T04:35:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And yet you continue to try. Isn’t that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results? Well, I guess some part of me thinks you’ll wake up one day and decide to take some responsibility for yourself. But so far you keep disappointing me. I wish I knew how to quit you, man. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/291 "2011-03-11T04:38:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > … and that he might be a self-hating white hispanic. I’m an enthusiastic buster of chops when it comes to friend **Bricker** , but I can’t see as how he has anything like that coming to him. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/292 "2011-03-11T04:41:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Sure, I’ll try. So what happened in all those other countries? What negative consequences will/does their lack of “freedom and choice” have? And you must admit it’s a bit difficult to sell people affected by the lack of some of the societal “safety nets” other countries have on the idea that they’re better off for not having them if they’re suffering in some way because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/293 "2011-03-11T04:43:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But so far you keep disappointing me. That’s how I know I am doing the right thing. If you are disappointed, it must be good for America. You are the perfect reverse barometer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/294 "2011-03-11T04:46:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are anti-science, bud, we’ve been over this so many times. Nope, you are the captain of the anti-scientific snake oil salesmen, even many conservatives in this board in the previous discussions concluded that you are full of hot air. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You have made up your mind and are closed off to the science. And the science doesn’t even speak on the ultimate issue (as you yourself have acknowledged). The fact is, the current republicans and tea partiers are certain about their anti science. And ignore the science when deciding what to do about the issue and to set policy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/295 "2011-03-11T04:56:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So what happened in all those other countries? What negative consequences will/does their lack of “freedom and choice” have? And you must admit it’s a bit difficult to sell people affected by the lack of some of the societal “safety nets” other countries have on the idea that they’re better off for not having them if they’re suffering in some way because of it. It is even worse, even if one thinks one has the backing of the law, going to unpaid maternity leave can lead to a woman losing her job, meaning that we have a de facto coercive pressure for many working women into not having babies or risking their health by going back to work sooner than expected. > **[The confusing state of family-leave policies.](https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/08/the-confusing-state-of-family-leave-policies.html)** > > Sandy Stephens got pregnant when she was working in housekeeping for a company known as Global NAPs Inc. in Massachusetts. Her supervisor at the small... > [@](#): > > Of course, however employers decide to respond to this case does not change the more fundamental problem with leave laws—the first being that the time is unpaid. Only two states, New Jersey and California, have leave programs that offer parents cash benefits, while Rhode Island, Hawaii, and New York provide some disability payments to new mothers. Meanwhile, Washington state, which passed a paid parental leave law but has so far been unable to pay for it, is in limbo. Without any income to keep them afloat during their time off, a substantial minority of those covered by the federal leave law don’t wind up taking the leave to which they’re entitled. Some 2.73 million workers surveyed over an 18-month period said they didn’t take FMLA leave because they couldn’t afford to, according to a 2000 Department of Labor study, the most recent of its kind. Besides those lucky enough to reside in the five states that provide any cash benefits, the only others who receive paid leave do so based on the generosity—or, perhaps, whim—of their employers. Indeed, that number is declining. In 2008, just 16 percent of employees were offered fully paid six-week maternity leaves, down from 27 percent about a decade ago, according to the Families and Work Institute, a New York-based nonprofit. And the number is likely falling further as the economy contracts. > > In reality, the rest of new mothers are often forced back to work well before they’d like to be there. Most working women don’t take the maximum leave afforded by the FMLA. Only 42 percent stayed home for the first 12 weeks of their infants’ lives, according to 2002 census numbers. Contributing to that dismal figure is a huge number of people who are covered by neither federal nor state leave laws and run a real risk of being fired for taking any time off after having a child. > > In its absurdly stingy approach to what happens to mothers and families after we bring a new life into the world, our country is almost entirely alone. The United States is the only developed nation not to have paid maternity leave and one of a small handful of countries in the world—rich and poor—not to do so. Had Stephens been employed in Haiti, Chad, Afghanistan, or Djibouti, for instance, she would have been entitled to paid time off. Meanwhile, back in Massachusetts, she took only unpaid time off, and even that turned out to come back and bite her. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/296 "2011-03-11T04:58:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Sure, I’ll try. > > I believe that freedom and choice are better than coercion and force. Now, sometimes people choose to harm others, so we have to use force to stop them. And sometimes people choose to not pay for things that benefit everyone, so we force them to pay. > > The fact that I like freedom and choice means that I think we should limit the force and coercion to only the bare minimum necessary. It should be used for only those things that are really necessary. > > So, now let’s talk about paid parental leave. A job is a relationship between two people, and generally those two people set the terms of the relationship (i.e., there is freedom and choice involved). That makes me happy, because I like freedom and choice. > > Now, someone comes along and says that there should be a law that requires employers to pay their employees while they don’t work for a certain amount of time after they have a kid. > > Some people ask “would society be a better place if people had paid parental leave?” and base their feelings about the law on their answer to that question. But I ask “is paid parental leave important enough to justify bringing coercion and force to bear on the freedom and choice exercised by the employer and employee?” And my answer is no–if someone wants paid parental leave, then they can bargain for it. Paid parental leave isn’t one of those very few things that it makes sense to use force over (like stopping people from hurting one another or funding a military to protect us from enemies). People who want it can obtain through freedom and choice–there’s no need to force others to give it to them. And this is the problem I have with big L Libertarians. A bunch of narcissists that think that if you somehow limited the force that government brings to bear, that the power vacuum would not be replaced by something else. I’ve never heard their solution to megacorps replacing the government in those areas they would remove government influence from. I’ve also never seen a solution from them on how we deal with other countries where those powers ARE wielded by their governments to our disadvantage. The dogma _sounds_ reasonable. I don’t want to be forced to do a lot of things. I don’t want to pay for excessive nukes and pre-emptive strikes on other countries that aren’t a direct military threat. But it turns out that a society that does delegate power to a central government is more effective at furthering the goals of that society. Individuals OFTEN make personal choices that are counterproductive from the point of view of the society. By finding a middle ground you get pretty decent results. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/297 "2011-03-11T06:01:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Mental note, flickster is a completely remorseless liar. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/298 "2011-03-11T06:56:41Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > And this is the problem I have with big L Libertarians. A bunch of narcissists that think that if you somehow limited the force that government brings to bear, that the power vacuum would not be replaced by something else. To be fair, I don’t think they think it’ll be replaced with NOTHING. Just that whatever replaces it is escapable - you can not patronize businesses, quit jobs, move away from towns and cities, etc. You can’t do that with government short of moving to another country, which is a lot more onerous than moving between cities. I don’t agree that it solves nearly as many issues with the philosophy as those who follow it think it does, but they do address it. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/299 "2011-03-11T07:32:22Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I responded to a specific question on a specific point that another poster made. I’d be happy to defend that point, should you care to address it. I doubt you will, because you know full well that the point I was refuting was an absurd one. Oh. That was me. Well, let’s look at my absurd point in context. I said: > [@Oldeb](#): > > Please give an example of an improved working enviroment not related to pressure from government laws or worker unions or expected pressure from same. Now, I assumed that by improved working enviroment it would be understood that I was thinking of occupational safety type measures since at the time the thread was about how this bill and the Republican Party might affect OSHA. I realize this must have been unclear since neither you nor **Bricker** responded in that manner. My apologies. I had thought that including this quote from **Bricker** in that post > [@Bricker](#): > > And it’s your contention, is it, that the fact that OSHA will vanish by this method is so certain, so utterly beyond the realm of debate that it’s fairly described as a “…‘no shit’ expectation based on historical data?” would imply that I was asking for any improvement to the realm of occupational safety not spurred by government regulation or union pressure in a historical context. I am under the impression that based on historical data when regulation and unions are lacking that worker safety and health take a steep nosedive. Again, my apologies for the miscommunication. Instead I was given a list of things that are, well, in no way related to worker safety. I learned that RealNetwork installed a bowling alley for it’s employees 6 years ago (which are, of course usable by any employee so long as it’s between 5:30 **pm** - 5:30\*\* am\*\*) I also learned that some companies offer massages and, here’s a big one\*\*\*, \*\*\*_ **Casual Fucking Friday!!!** _ Woo! Power to the people! Now, ignoring the things that the majority of the workforce is never going to see (like the bowling alley and free massages) or are so incredibly stupid that I can’t believe you even listed them (like Casual Fridays) there were some actual points there. None were what I was expecting, but I hadn’t considered things such as personal days or subsidized cafeterias. So I concede on a point I wasn’t intending to ask, namely that companies do sometimes offer benefits without being pressured into them by either the government or unions. In any case I did at least get an answer from **Bricker** as to what formed the basis of his belief that OSHA would remain unaffected. I’m not sure “because the word OSHA is never specifically mentioned” is a sound basis, but hey, at least it is one. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/300 "2011-03-11T08:01:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I work from 7 in the morning to 8:30 at night, usually. As a salaried employee, I earn no overtime. My employer gets more than eight hours per day from me, constantly. You know nothing and wouldn’t recognize hard work if it bit you. A useless and mediocre person, clamoring for the government to save you from your laziness and stupidity. Dude you work 5 1/2 hours overtime a day with no remuneration, and you’re calling other people stupid? Your employer must be overjoyed to have such clever employees as yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=16)