# Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111 "2011-03-10T00:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/441 "2011-03-18T13:13:09Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > We know./ “Moral obligation” is a superstition to you. I don’t know what you mean by “superstition.” As I’ve discussed countless times, I think “you have a moral obligation to do x” just means “I would prefer if you did x.” So it’s a simple statement of opinion and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/442 "2011-03-18T13:18:03Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I understand that there are so many on this board who are young, or students (see **Han, Lobo** ) who don’t know shit about how the world works, and that’s fine. But my mission is to educate the clueless! In a way, I’m just like Cecil 😛 This is the sound of you deflecting because you can’t justify your bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/443 "2011-03-18T13:19:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are delusional, and that will keep your ideology from ever becoming anything more that an irritating gnat. Please. My philosophy is about moving us all forward. Yours is about holding us all back in an attempt to help your favored groups. Sure sounds like you’re the irritating gnat to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/444 "2011-03-18T13:21:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You show the failure of your philosophy more clearly with every post. Economic growth is the engine that moves society (ie, everybody) forward. You want to throw sand in the engine out of your desire to help your favored groups. And then you have the temerity to accuse people like me of playing favorites. > > The truly pathetic thing is that you don’t realize these simple truths. The Santa you believe in is that none of your sand will actually hurt the engine (even though we have example after example–eg, Europe–of exactly that occurring). > > But it looks like people are finally wising up and your ranks are diminishing. Good riddance. With any luck people like you will be as rare as communists in the US here in a few years. Some things are opinion and some are facts. You don’t understand the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/445 "2011-03-18T13:22:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please. My philosophy is about moving us all forward. That is not the way it appears to those not infected by the objectivist virus. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/446 "2011-03-18T13:41:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Some things are opinion and some are facts. You don’t understand the difference. We’ve been over this. Care to remind everyone what yo think are facts? Remember when you got on my ass for arguuing against facts and I asked for examples? Two were climate change and “health care reform,” and I forgot the othe one but it was equally a mater of opinion. And here yoy are again repeating the same stupid shit over again. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/447 "2011-03-18T13:47:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is not the way it appears to those not infected by the objectivist virus. If you knew anything about objectivism you’d know I’m not an objectivist. My post above about “moral obligation” just being an opinion is anathema to objectivists. Which brings up a larger point. You don’t understand what I’m saying, but because uim not down with slowing down the world to help your favored groups, you brand me your enemy. So you just throw all manner of stupid argument out there, hoping something will stick, all to take attention away from the fact that you are the enemy of society. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/448 "2011-03-18T13:48:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > We’ve been over this. Care to remind everyone what yo think are facts? Remember when you got on my ass for arguuing against facts and I asked for examples? Two were climate change and “health care reform,” and I forgot the othe one but it was equally a mater of opinion. And here yoy are again repeating the same stupid shit over again. Hey retard, slow down. You’re gonna bust a blood vessel. You misunderstand, but this is perfectly normal, because you’re stupid. It is a fact that the vast majority of climate scientists believe climate change is happening. You choose to believe the tiny minority who say different. You do this because you want the tiny minority to be correct and don’t care about facts. As for health reform, it is a fact that we spend more to worse results than other nations. You choose to believe that this is because we are somehow inherently less capable than other nations. You also once read a book by some dimwit Russian squak and decided that it accurately described how economics works. That is just like an opinion, man. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/449 "2011-03-18T13:51:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And here yoy are again repeating the same stupid shit over again. Well, like Forrest said: “Stupid is as stupid does.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/450 "2011-03-18T13:56:08Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Well, like Forrest said: “Stupid is as stupid does.” Quoting your intellectual betters is a poor substitute for wit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/451 "2011-03-18T16:15:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > If you knew anything about objectivism you’d know I’m not an objectivist. My post above about “moral obligation” just being an opinion is anathema to objectivists. Whatever you are, your ideology is littered with moral judgements. Case in point: How many times have pointed out in other threads that government entitlement programs “infantilize” the poor? That is a moral judgement. If it weren’t, you wouldn’t care if the poor were infantilized. And your insistence that coercion is bad; that is a moral judgment. If you didn’t think so, coercion would just be another legitimate market force, like supply, demand or competition. But because you are morally opposed to coercion, it is bad. In many ways, you are the most morally hamstrung person on this board. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/452 "2011-03-18T16:17:19Z")
[A restraining order has just been issued to block implementation of the union-stripping law.](http://www.channel3000.com/news/27239147/detail.html) > [@](#): > > A Dane County judge has issued a restraining order on Friday to block publication of the state’s collective bargaining law. > > Judge Maryann Sumi issued the order to temporarily block the law as Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne had requested as part of his lawsuit. > > Ozanne filed a lawsuit on Wednesday accusing Republican legislative leaders of violating Wisconsin’s open meetings law during the rushed run-up to a Senate vote on the measure last week. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/453 "2011-03-18T17:26:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Whatever you are, your ideology is littered with moral judgements. Case in point: How many times have pointed out in other threads that government entitlement programs “infantilize” the poor? That is a moral judgement. If it weren’t, you wouldn’t care if the poor were infantilized. > > And your insistence that coercion is bad; that is a moral judgment. If you didn’t think so, coercion would just be another legitimate market force, like supply, demand or competition. But because you are morally opposed to coercion, it is bad. > > In many ways, you are the most morally hamstrung person on this board. Yes, there are things that I consider bad. But I never say that those things are bad in sme objective sense–I’m always very clear that I am expressing only my opinion. You seem to think you are pointing out some hypocrisy or inconsistency on my part, but you’ve failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/454 "2011-03-18T18:40:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If a pharmaceutical company decides they can make a buttload of money selling fake drugs, losing market share will be small consolation to the families of those who die as a result. Not to accuse you of being an argumentative lefty who just sees what he wants so he can knock down that strawman, but… Did you miss the part of the post where I said: > [@](#): > > The market, the press, and the legal system handles that kind of regulation way more efficiently in so many aspects. The scenario you describe is clearly what a legal system is for. And the threat of destruction of one’s business due to the suits would stop unethical drug purveyors. Or maybe you knew that and decided to post anyway, in which case, have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/455 "2011-03-18T18:45:16Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > [A restraining order has just been issued to block implementation of the union-stripping law.](http://www.channel3000.com/news/27239147/detail.html) Did you see why? Seems as though the open-forum laws weren’t obeyed when they rushed through the vote - Wisconsin demands more sunshine evidently when passing laws. Seems like it’s very good odds that it will simply be re-voted again, this time according to Hoyle. Also interesting that nobody has really addressed Walker’s piece I posted yesterday. Maybe because his arguments are unassailable? (or maybe because the lefty playbook doesn’t call for addressing points with facts, rather to obfuscate, change the subject, and when all else fails, call people names?) ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/456 "2011-03-18T18:46:18Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The scenario you describe is clearly what a legal system is for. And the threat of destruction of one’s business due to the suits would stop unethical drug purveyors. Do I understand you correctly? Are you actually trying to argue that there’s no need for government to be a check on fraudulent companies because we have a legal system? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/457 "2011-03-18T18:52:24Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Do I understand you correctly? Are you actually trying to argue that there’s no need for government to be a check on fraudulent companies because we have a legal system? Is it bad that when I read that I “heard” it in Joe Pesci’s voice? (“I’m sorry; did you just say you’re a _fast cook_?!”) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/458 "2011-03-18T22:47:20Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Also interesting that nobody has really addressed Walker’s piece I posted yesterday. Maybe because his arguments are unassailable? > > (or maybe because the lefty playbook doesn’t call for addressing points with facts, rather to obfuscate, change the subject, and when all else fails, call people names?) No, not really. Here, let me point out a couple of things that are very assailable: > [@Scott Walker](#): > > Contrary to what the Obama administration would lead you to believe, most employees of the federal government do not have collective bargaining for wages and benefits. What percentage of federal employees are unionized? This seems to be a misleading statement, as collective bargaining only applies to unionized workers. If over half of federal workers are not unionized, then of course “most” them don’t have collective bargaining for wages and benefits. The rest of his piece is all just his opinion, unsupported by any facts. I’ll assail the hell out of it and say that he’s wrong on every point. His actions don’t give schools or local governments the tools they need to do anything constructive, will ultimately lead to a smaller state population, and amount to nothing but a huge giveaway to his real bosses; i.e. corporations and billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/459 "2011-03-18T23:05:38Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I don’t claim to have the libertarian chops like **Rand** does, and I understand that this is way off topic, but why is the ‘only real check’ the Federal Government? Why isn’t it the market? Why isn’t it competition? > > Every day in business, there are competitive threats, market influencers, the press, global pressures, etc. The liberal Xanadu, an excessive and oppressive federal regulatory environment, is yet one more burden heaped on American industry - and then the **Jacquelopes** of the world post some pit thread crying about how jobs are moving overseas. > > Obviously there needs to be some federal presence in certain places, especially in industries with natural monopolies (like electric power distribution) but the answer so often to many on this board seems to always be, 'We need another Government Program to fix this". The market, the press, and the legal system handles that kind of regulation way more efficiently in so many aspects. How does the marketplace allow competition to handle a monopoly? And before you cite international competition, keep in mind that foreign governments are happy to give their industries a leg up and support below market pricing until they own it. Once one or a few companies own a marketplace, the best return is to set pricing. The marketplace is not magic. It’s like claiming that evolution produces the most efficient lifeforms. While on some timescale monopolies may be “unstable”, they can certainly last for generations. It doesn’t help me much if someday a monopoly that has existed for all my life is eventually unseated. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/460 "2011-03-19T00:51:16Z")
You seem to be really hung up on monopolies. Why don’t you go read up on them some? One thing you may learn is that a true monopoly is extremely hard to sustain for any length of time. Building a whole system around trying to stop monopolies is like designing a police force to only stop serial killers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=24)