# Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111 "2011-03-10T00:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/481 "2011-03-21T23:29:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > TTR, let me ask you this simple yes or no question: do you want the government to enact a new program that gives free cotton candy to every kid on their birthday? Okay I’ll play along. As stated with cotton candy specifically, no. However I would not be opposed to the child’s guardian using government food assistance for a special out of the ordinary treat, say birthday cake and ice cream. Stuff like that is part of a normal childhood. Okay I answered your question, and then some. Now please address this: > [@](#): > > It’s my general conception of you. I’ll tell you what, tell me I’m wrong. > > Tell me you believe the unfortunate shouldn’t be allowed to starve. Nor left behind educationally. That there should be government programs to provide a fail-safe for this. > > Or even just tell me part of that. If you nitpick “should” without a replacement classifier, then you’re confirming my statement. Further please explain why you feel your cotton candy question was relevant, or state you’re just being random. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/482 "2011-03-21T23:40:31Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > no. Thank you. One more yes or no question (this is the second of three, so we’re almost done): if some individual or group (not affiliated with or funded by the government) wanted to give every kid free cotton candy on their birthday, would you be OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/483 "2011-03-21T23:44:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Thank you. One more yes or no question (this is the second of three, so we’re almost done): if some individual or group (not affiliated with or funded by the government) wanted to give every kid free cotton candy on their birthday, would you be OK with that? He answered your question; I think it’s only fair that you answer his. If you have three questions to ask, just ask them. You’re not smart enough to play Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/484 "2011-03-22T00:01:49Z")
If the third question is, “what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow,” I’m leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/485 "2011-03-22T00:06:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If the third question is, “what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow,” I’m leaving. Rand Rover: “A duck!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/486 "2011-03-22T00:10:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What percentage of federal employees are unionized? This seems to be a misleading statement, as collective bargaining only applies to unionized workers. If over half of federal workers are not unionized, then of course “most” them don’t have collective bargaining for wages and benefits. It’s about [31 percent and dropping](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2011/01/federal_worker_union_membershi.html). Of course, to be fair you would only consider the unionized-to-unionized here, apples to apples. I’m guessing after all that there are some Wisconsin government employees who aren’t unionized. I haven’t found the exact number but Eugene “I see white people” Robinson says, nationwide, about [42%](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/22/starving_wisconsins_unions_108973.html) of state and local workers are unionized, which seems in the same ballpark, I hope you agree. > [@](#): > > T His actions … amount to nothing but a huge giveaway to his real bosses; i.e. corporations and billionaires. I’m not sure how you go from restricting collective bargaining among public sector workers, where a clear organizational conflict of interest exists, to this. But I’m sure there’s some lefty doctrine that proves it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/487 "2011-03-22T00:15:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Do I understand you correctly? Are you actually trying to argue that there’s no need for government to be a check on fraudulent companies because we have a legal system? I’m saying that there’s a cost involved to building and operating a federal infrastructure that ‘checks’ (oh, were that it were only that) on ‘fraudulent’ companies (I guess we’ll only check the fraudulent ones… which ones were those, exactly? 😉 ) Anyone who doesn’t think that an onerous regulatory environment doesn’t exact a pound of flesh from an economy is pretty naive about how business works. And it’s not just the salaries and equipment and benefits etc of the feds - there’s the cost of compliance by private industry, which serves to raise prices, makes US less competitive globally, etc etc etc. This is not an argument for a wild west - it’s simply that bigger doesn’t always equal better, when it comes to regulatory infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/488 "2011-03-22T00:19:13Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > How does the marketplace allow competition to handle a monopoly? And before you cite international competition, keep in mind that foreign governments are happy to give their industries a leg up and support below market pricing until they own it. > > Once one or a few companies own a marketplace, the best return is to set pricing. > > The marketplace is not magic. It’s like claiming that evolution produces the most efficient lifeforms. > > While on some timescale monopolies may be “unstable”, they can certainly last for generations. It doesn’t help me much if someday a monopoly that has existed for all my life is eventually unseated. Did you read my post? Go back and re-read it. Now then. I said that natural monopolies, because of the lack of competition, may actually require federal regulation. As for monopolies lasting forever, can you name one industry now that affects you that has one that will likely last 20 years? 10? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/489 "2011-03-22T00:19:55Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > (I guess we’ll only check the fraudulent ones… which ones were those, exactly? 😉 ) Can’t tell until the fraud is exposed and they’ve already ‘gotten away with it’, so to speak, so what we’ll do is lay down some rules, or ‘regulations’, and expect the companies to follow them. If they don’t, there’s a good chance something fishy is up. Gosh, it’s almost crazy enough to work. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/490 "2011-03-22T00:21:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’m not sure how you go from restricting collective bargaining among public sector workers, where a clear organizational conflict of interest exists, … Such a perception of a conflict of interest can only occur in a febrile mind. Nor can the editing (albeit skillful editing) of **Snowboarder Bo** ’s comment on Walker’s opinion piece to make it appear that the former was only referring to unions and not to the giveaway of power plants and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/491 "2011-03-22T00:29:34Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It’s about [31 percent and dropping](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2011/01/federal_worker_union_membershi.html). Of course, to be fair you would only consider the unionized-to-unionized here, apples to apples. I’m guessing after all that there are some Wisconsin government employees who aren’t unionized. I haven’t found the exact number but Eugene “I see white people” Robinson says, nationwide, about [42%](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/22/starving_wisconsins_unions_108973.html) of state and local workers are unionized, which seems in the same ballpark, I hope you agree. Why are you moving the goal posts by talking about state and local government employees? The claim was specifically > [@Scott Walker](#): > > most employees of the federal government do not have collective bargaining for wages and benefits which, given that according to your own cite the vast majority of federal employees are not unionized, is a meaningless factoid. Here, let me re-phrase it for you: > [@Bo to mock Gov. Walker](#): > > People who do not come together to do something will not get something done as a group. > [@Mr. Smashy](#): > > I’m not sure how you go from restricting collective bargaining among public sector workers, where a clear organizational conflict of interest exists, to this. But I’m sure there’s some lefty doctrine that proves it. I’m not sure why you try and move the goal posts, except to try and deflect the fact that the assertions you backed are bullshit, but I’m sure there’s some righty doctrine that approves of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/492 "2011-03-22T12:49:04Z")
OK **Snowboarder** , read this, then get back to me. The [link](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/02/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-most-federal-emplo/). Seems as though what Walker said was completely true. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/493 "2011-03-22T12:53:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Such a perception of a conflict of interest can only occur in a febrile mind. > > Nor can the editing (albeit skillful editing) of **Snowboarder Bo** ’s comment on Walker’s opinion piece to make it appear that the former was only referring to unions and not to the giveaway of power plants and so on. Well, my point was, this was supposed to be a thread about the union bill Walker forced through. It gets tiring to see the lefties here follow their gameplan of changing the subject after their point is hammered down. (Plan C, by the way, is to start the namecalling). Since the title of the thread really doesn’t have much to do with power plants et al, I was hoping to keep Mr Short Attention Span Theatre on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/494 "2011-03-22T15:17:06Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It gets tiring to see the lefties here follow their gameplan of changing the subject after their point is hammered down. (Plan C, by the way, is to start the namecalling). Probably because it happens so often, would be my guess. 😕 They really hate it when you follow their lead and hammer that one down, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/495 "2011-03-22T20:59:12Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > OK **Snowboarder** , read this, then get back to me. > > The [link](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/02/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-most-federal-emplo/). > > Seems as though what Walker said was completely true. You don’t get it, do you? You keep moving the goalposts and changing the terms of the question to suit your needs. What percentage of federal employees who are a part of a collective bargaining unit don’t enjoy the right to bargain collectively? That’s what happened/is happening in Wisconsin: members of a collective bargaining unit (hereafter referred to as a “union”) are now being denied the right to bargain collectively. FFS, you’re own cite there shows that a) federal workers do, by and large, enjoy collective bargaining for the things that are now being denied in Wisconsin and b) the process would be simpler and more equitable if federal workers could bargain for their wages. > [@](#): > > “Unlike all the other state, county and municipal workers in the country who have collective bargaining rights, federal workers have their pay and benefits set by Congress,” Brofenbrenner said. “ **But federal workers can bargain over terms and conditions of employment besides pay and benefits**.” > > “This has not created stable labor relations in the public sector by any means,” she said. “Instead it has meant that senators and congressional representatives with large numbers of federal employees in their districts end up fighting to have money put into bills for federal workers in their districts the same as if they were lobbying to get money for a large federal contract. Thus, instead of being done in the very open transparent process of state and local public sector bargaining it is all done at a higher level, mostly behind closed doors, but **the money still is getting there, just not as equitably as it would if there were collective bargaining**.” Thanks for helping me show that collective bargaining works. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/496 "2011-03-22T21:00:33Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Well, my point was, this was supposed to be a thread about the union bill Walker forced through. It gets tiring to see the lefties here follow their gameplan of changing the subject after their point is hammered down. (Plan C, by the way, is to start the namecalling). Since the title of the thread really doesn’t have much to do with power plants et al, I was hoping to keep Mr Short Attention Span Theatre on topic. I love how you decry lefties for “namecalling” and in the very next sentence call me a name. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/497 "2011-03-22T21:27:10Z")
You’re just pissed because your point was totally hammered down by his luminous intelligence and incisive wit. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/498 "2011-03-22T23:12:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You don’t get it, do you? You keep moving the goalposts and changing the terms of the question to suit your needs. > > What percentage of federal employees who are a part of a collective bargaining unit don’t enjoy the right to bargain collectively? No, you don’t get it. What Walker said was completely correct. Others on this board have suggested otherwise. Seems as though _you_ are trying to move the goal posts, trying to argue against something that Walker never posited. I’m pointing out that you are wrong. Upthread you say > [@](#): > > I’ll assail the hell out of it and say that he’s wrong on every point. If you’re an adult, time for you to retract that. I’m not holding my breath, though… no offense. As for your last question, I’ve done a lot of research already and posted cites. Your turn? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/499 "2011-03-23T03:24:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > No, you don’t get it. What Walker said was completely correct. Others on this board have suggested otherwise. > > Seems as though _you_ are trying to move the goal posts, trying to argue against something that Walker never posited. I’m pointing out that you are wrong. > > Upthread you say > > If you’re an adult, time for you to retract that. I’m not holding my breath, though… no offense. > > As for your last question, I’ve done a lot of research already and posted cites. > > Your turn? I have no reason to retract my opinion of Gov. Walker’s opinions. I wish you would hold your breath until I do, tho. Your research, AFAICT, is to continue to post links to Gov. Walker’s opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111/500 "2011-03-23T04:16:26Z")
Good for you, kid. It takes a wise man to continue to spout nonsense, in the face of proof otherwise. For others here who are interested in being enlightened, here’s just one quote from Walker’s piece: > [@](#): > > Contrary to what the Obama administration would lead you to believe, most employees of the federal government do not have collective bargaining for wages and benefits. That means the budget reform plan we signed into law in Wisconsin on Friday is more generous than what President Obama offers federal employees. > > Our reform plan calls for a 5.8 percent pension contribution from government workers, including myself, and a 12.6 percent health insurance premium payment. Both are well below what middle-class, private-sector workers pay. Federal workers, however, pay an average of 28 percent of health insurance costs. I’ve proven that it’s true, using links to left-wing sources. Einstein here feels this disagrees with his political stance, therefore he says it’s an opinion. Unless you actually have some fact and data, **Snow** , I’d say we’re done. PS Bush lied, people died, no blood for oil, etc. etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-gop-passes-union-stripping-bill/574111.md?page=26)