# Wisconsin orders arrest of missing Democrats. Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396 "2011-03-03T19:15:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/121 "2011-03-05T19:36:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There have been polls showing the people do not want the bill., Who does Walker represent, the people or corporate power. The one in the wrong is Walker. I am a non-union private sector employee in Wisconsin. I make less than a similarly employed public-union worker. Yet I’m expected to foot the bill. He represents me & I want the bill. Hope that clears things up. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/122 "2011-03-05T20:17:11Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > I am a non-union private sector employee in Wisconsin. I make less than a similarly employed public-union worker. Yet I’m expected to foot the bill. He represents me & I want the bill. How do you feel about being in the minority? Should your view prevail over that of the majority? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/123 "2011-03-05T20:37:12Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > I am a non-union private sector employee in Wisconsin. I make less than a similarly employed public-union worker. Yet I’m expected to foot the bill. He represents me & I want the bill. > > Hope that clears things up. What bill are you footing? The senators that are in Illinois are using their own money. Why don’t you start a union and get more money and benefits? Why do you think your position will be enhanced by bringing their salaries down? Do you think if they are brought below your pay level, you will be transformed and gather more money and power? You are digging in the wrong place. The money is on a rocket to the top.It is not in the worker class. The teachers and janitors are workers like you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/124 "2011-03-05T20:42:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What bill are you footing? The senators that are in Illinois are using their own money. > Why don’t you start a union and get more money and benefits? Why do you think your position will be enhanced by bringing their salaries down? Do you think if they are brought below your pay level, you will be transformed and gather more money and power? > You are digging in the wrong place. The money is on a rocket to the top.It is not in the worker class. The teachers and janitors are workers like you. Maybe he’s happy getting paid what he can convince an employer to pay him, based to his own merits. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/125 "2011-03-05T21:22:35Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > What’s the purpose of having a supermajoritarian quorum for budget matters if it can’t ever be used tactically? If it’s not meant to be used in this way (and I grant that that’s probably the case), it’s a pretty glaring structural fault. Requiring No votes to show up in order for the vote to be valid is a recipe for events like this. (And it’s possible to create the same requirement for the number of yes votes needed without having a quorum. There could be a requirement that budget matters must receive the approval of more than 50% of senators present and more than 30% (the 3/5 quorum currently in effect divided in half) of the total number of senators.) I think that you concede that fleeing the state is not what the Wisconsin framers had in mind for the quorum requirements. Obviously, it is so that a handful of Senators can’t hold a late night secret session and pass a bunch of bills. If the intention was to be able to tactically leave to delay voting, then there would be no procedure for compelling the attendance of absent members. Okay, but fair enough, they used a rule and got around the intent using a procedural rule AND fleeing the jurisdiction so as to not be accountable to Wisconsin law. Is expulsion also not a rule that can be “tweaked” to go the other way? Fair is fair, right? Where do I get a job where not working is “doing your job” according to posters here? (Besides the Wisconsin legislature) I want to sit in a hotel out of state, pound booze, try to score with traveling business women, and have people praise me for the wonderful “job” I’m doing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/126 "2011-03-05T21:37:18Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that you concede that fleeing the state is not what the Wisconsin framers had in mind for the quorum requirements. Obviously, it is so that a handful of Senators can’t hold a late night secret session and pass a bunch of bills. If the intention was to be able to tactically leave to delay voting, then there would be no procedure for compelling the attendance of absent members. > > Okay, but fair enough, they used a rule and got around the intent using a procedural rule AND fleeing the jurisdiction so as to not be accountable to Wisconsin law. Is expulsion also not a rule that can be “tweaked” to go the other way? Fair is fair, right? > > Where do I get a job where not working is “doing your job” according to posters here? (Besides the Wisconsin legislature) I want to sit in a hotel out of state, pound booze, try to score with traveling business women, and have people praise me for the wonderful “job” I’m doing. Where do I get a job where you are praised for stopping(via filabuster) a large section of your company from doing its job? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/127 "2011-03-05T21:41:30Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Where do I get a job where not working is “doing your job” according to posters here? (Besides the Wisconsin legislature) I want to sit in a hotel out of state, pound booze, try to score with traveling business women, and have people praise me for the wonderful “job” I’m doing. _There’s_ a fair and unbiased description of what’s going on. Are you aware that one of the Wisconsin 14 is pregnant (and a woman, if you need to have that pointed out)? That they’re pretty much roaming from motel to motel because some schizo tea party stalker is harassing them? Do you really believe that they’re kicking back and having grapes peeled for them while they debauch themselves into a puddle of drunken goo? ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/128 "2011-03-05T21:58:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe he’s happy getting paid what he can convince an employer to pay him, based to his own merits. Exactly! I have been employed for just over a year with my current employer. I worked harder than anyone else and have been promoted. Had I been stifled by having been under union rules I would still be doing the work assigned on day one despite having worked hard or not. [QUOTE=gonzomax] What bill are you footing? The senators that are in Illinois are using their own money. Why don’t you start a union and get more money and benefits? Why do you think your position will be enhanced by bringing their salaries down? Do you think if they are brought below your pay level, you will be transformed and gather more money and power? You are digging in the wrong place. The money is on a rocket to the top.It is not in the worker class. The teachers and janitors are workers like you. [/QUOTE] I’m not talking about the cost of the hotel rooms for the Senators. I don’t care about that. The bill the private sector is being asked to pay is the funding of an already bloated Government, its workers and their pensions. What happens when Government gets so bloated and mired in structural deficits that we can no longer pay for it. Who will wind up getting screwed? The pension holders, that’s who. If our government keeps going the way it is we won’t be able to pay the pensions promised to private sector workers. Asking them to pay more of their own pensions, just like everyone else has to, will be better in the long run. Ending collective bargaining privileges will ensure that they won’t be able to muck it up again. As for why I don’t organize a union where I work. I have convinced my employer to both promote me and give me more money passing up many others who have been there for many more years. Could I have done that in a Union shop. Doubt it. In fact I have no doubt that a union would have held me back. If there ever was talk of unionizing where I work I would be the most vocal opponent. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/129 "2011-03-05T22:19:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How do you feel about being in the minority? Should your view prevail over that of the majority? Strange question, the view of the legislators who want to pass the budget repair bill are in the majority. If former Gov. Jim Doyle and the Democrats had been doing such a great job over the last eight years they wouldn’t be in the minority right now. If you’re talking about polling data regarding support for the budget repair bill - I don’t really care. We don’t have binding referendums except for Constitutional amendments. I don’t see why it matters. Did the fact that most Americans, according to some polls, change your _feelings_ regarding Obama’s health care bill? Much of the opposition stems from the fact that nobody wants to hurt teachers. We are nice folks out here. Don’t think I don’t have any reservations regarding taking the teeth out of WEAC. But, I also am pragmatic and don’t feel Wisconsin can fiscally handle everything the unions demand. When it is revealed that public sector union employees earn more on average than their private sector counterparts and continue to demand more they start to sound like an entitled aristocratic class untouchable by those who pay for their salaries. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/130 "2011-03-05T22:24:25Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > When it is revealed that public sector union employees earn more on average than their private sector counterparts and continue to demand more they start to sound like an entitled aristocratic class untouchable by those who pay for their salaries. Cite? Because I do believe that, in the three or so threads about this situation on the SDMB, this has been proven a lie or a misrepresentation. On average, public sector employees make 5% less than their public sector counterparts, when education and cost of living are accounted for. And the public unions in Wisconsin have already conceded the financial adjustments that Walker wanted to make. Walker rejected that concession because his ultimate goal is not to balance any budget, it’s to destroy public sector unions (and, ultimately, private sector). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/131 "2011-03-05T22:40:51Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do you really believe that they’re kicking back and having grapes peeled for them while they debauch themselves into a puddle of drunken goo? No, but that’s sure as hell what I would be doing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/132 "2011-03-05T22:44:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where do I get a job where you are praised for stopping(via filabuster) a large section of your company from doing its job? A bit different. You are still physically present and using an approved mechanism for delaying something that you believe is wrong. And, you can still move on and do all of the other things that need done, again, because you are there. By leaving, you are grinding the business of Wisconsin to a halt because of your disagreement with the majority. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/133 "2011-03-05T23:04:53Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > this is the same mechanism under which pre-verdict defendants are hauled back into court when they flee the jurisdiction. there are probably extra penalties tagged on by statute, but the fact that the court has inherent power to compel appearance isn’t changed by that. The judicial branch in Wisconsin does not have the power to enforce that statute. As far as the courts are concerned, this is a political question and must be left to legislature to adjudicate. The legislature is the one that makes the rules here, and the constitutional separation of powers would render any court action here as a violation of that doctrine. What the Democrats are doing is politically motivated. No “crime” has been committed, however. OTOH, if they return to Wisconsin, they can be arrested and hauled off to the Senate chamber–but that’s about it. They can’t throw them into jail because what they’re doing is\* not\* a crime. Should they be thrown in jail, it would violate the immunity clause for members of the legislature, and there would be some serious fallout from that–even the Republicans know that would be a big no-no. The U.S. Marshals cannot be used here–they have no power to enforce Wisconsin’s legislative rules. That’s the price you pay for federalism. I would guess the same applies to the Illinois governor, he can’t extradite the WN senators because extradition as I understand it involves criminal activities, not political (I don’t know about torts, however). I would go so far to say it would violate their civil rights if he did, however (right to free assembly), which would make that criminal. Nothing to be gained here. Overall, whether you think the Democratic state senators are right or wrong in this, as far as I can tell, they’ve done nothing illegal with respect to the law. That’s just a opinion, if I’ve missed anything obvious, please correct me. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/134 "2011-03-05T23:04:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe he’s happy getting paid what he can convince an employer to pay him, based to his own merits. Then why is he bitching about what others make? How is it any of his business? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/135 "2011-03-06T01:02:54Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Strange question, the view of the legislators who want to pass the budget repair bill are in the majority. Are you a legislator? Should they care what you think? > [@](#): > > If you’re talking about polling data regarding support for the budget repair bill - I don’t really care. Shouldn’t legislators listen to their constituents? Or just the ones that agree with them? > [@](#): > > Did the fact that most Americans, according to some polls, change your _feelings_ regarding Obama’s health care bill? No, because I share the view of the majority who would have preferred that the healh care reform bill included a public option, and that it not take fours years to implement. You are far to the right of the majority of Americans with respect to health care reform. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/136 "2011-03-06T01:36:20Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Cite? Because I do believe that, in the three or so threads about this situation on the SDMB, this has been proven a lie or a misrepresentation. On average, public sector employees make 5% less than their public sector counterparts, when education and cost of living are accounted for. And the public unions in Wisconsin have already conceded the financial adjustments that Walker wanted to make. Walker rejected that concession because his ultimate goal is not to balance any budget, it’s to destroy public sector unions (and, ultimately, private sector). [USA Today](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/137 "2011-03-06T01:43:57Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > [USA Today](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm) > [@](#): > > “The analysis included full and part-time workers and did not adjust for specific jobs, age, education or experience.” Yes, that’s the way to make an accurate analysis… ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/138 "2011-03-06T01:49:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Then why is he bitching about what others make? How is it any of his business? Government jobs are paid for through taxation. I’m a taxpayer and I vote. I also had a rare free Saturday afternoon to write about it online. 😛 Government, its machinations and Rube Goldbergian alphabet soup agencies ultimately need the consent of the governed in order to exist. We’ve pulled back some of our consent. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/139 "2011-03-06T02:00:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Are you a legislator? Should they care what you think?Shouldn’t legislators listen to their constituents? Or just the ones that agree with them?No, because I share the view of the majority who would have preferred that the healh care reform bill included a public option, and that it not take fours years to implement. You are far to the right of the majority of Americans with respect to health care reform. I am not a legislator. You asked me how I felt about being in the minority opinion. Like I said it doesn’t bother me. I’m okay with it. It does not cause me to have feelings. I don’t know why my being or not being a Legislator has anything to do with it. Legislators do what’s in their best interest. I’m sure I don’t have to explain the concept of a representational democracy to you. There are machinations in place to recall elected officials who go too far outside of what the electorate wants. Outside of that they don’t have to listen to anyone. I’m not saying that’s a good thing - it’s not necessarily a bad thing either, but it’s within the rules of our system. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396/140 "2011-03-06T02:07:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes, that’s the way to make an accurate analysis… What would be an accurate way to analyze it? I really don’t know why or how they analyzed their data, but I’ve never thought of the USA Today as having a particular editorial slant either left or right. I suppose extremes on either side would tell you its editors are controlled by the interests of their opposition. That’s how most things work in politics, I’ve found. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-orders-arrest-of-missing-democrats-legal/573396.md?page=8)