# Wisconsin Sikh Temple Shooting \[and gun control\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556 "2012-08-05T22:31:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IceQube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@IceQube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IceQube)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/1 "2012-08-05T22:31:01Z")
> **[Gunman, six others dead at Wisconsin Sikh temple | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html)** > > At least seven people, including a gunman shot by a police officer, have been killed in an attack at a Sikh temple near Milwaukee. Another tragedy. Perhaps with another dozen massacres, gun laws will start making headway in Washington? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/2 "2012-08-05T22:34:17Z")
Speaking as a progressive liberal, the gun was only the tool. It was hatred and ignorance that killed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/3 "2012-08-05T22:38:49Z")
> [@IceQube](#): > > Perhaps with another dozen massacres, gun laws will start making headway in Washington? No, not with a hundred or a thousand more. For most Americans, owning guns is something they are willing to sacrifice anything and anyone for. No person, no right, no principle, _nothing_ is more important than that chunk of metal. Human life is meaningless; what matters is guns. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/4 "2012-08-05T22:41:14Z")
There is a thread on this already, > **[Looks like another mass shooting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=661035)** > > At a Sikh Temple in Oak Creek Wisconsin. (That’s near Milwaukee) 8 to 20 people injured, including, perhaps, a police officer. Suspect is still on the loose. Heavy set balding white guy. Article suggests a possible reason: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/5 "2012-08-05T22:43:08Z")
> [@IceQube](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html) > > Another tragedy. > > Perhaps with another dozen massacres, gun laws will start making headway in Washington? Explain how more gun laws (of which I’m sure there are plenty ) would have prevented this. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/6 "2012-08-05T22:51:32Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Explain how more gun laws (of which I’m sure there are plenty ) would have prevented this. If guns are less available, you’ll see fewer shootings in general. Not that incidents like this are really very important in terms of the damage caused by guns; they are just spectacular. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/7 "2012-08-06T01:26:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If guns are less available, you’ll see fewer shootings in general. Not that incidents like this are really very important in terms of the damage caused by guns; they are just spectacular. You’ll certainly see fewer gun deaths. But that’s not the same as fewer deaths. A can of gasoline and a locked door would kill many more people in the building. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/8 "2012-08-06T01:43:06Z")
People who are determined enough will acquire weapons any way they can, even if they can’t do so legally. ---
**Author:** ![IceQube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@IceQube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IceQube)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/9 "2012-08-06T02:14:26Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > People who are determined enough will acquire weapons any way they can, even if they can’t do so legally. So you concede that stricter gun laws might reduce gun-violence related deaths by discouraging those who have contemplated killing others but lack the resolve to bypass the strict law? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/10 "2012-08-06T02:54:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’ll certainly see fewer gun deaths. But that’s not the same as fewer deaths. A can of gasoline and a locked door would kill many more people in the building. It’s harder to kill people with improvised weapons. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/11 "2012-08-06T03:05:10Z")
> [@IceQube](#): > > So you concede that stricter gun laws might reduce gun-violence related deaths by discouraging those who have contemplated killing others but lack the resolve to bypass the strict law? No I don’t. I don’t know the motivation of the shooter, obviously, but shootings such as the one in Aurora were planned out to a meticulous level of detail. Stricter gun laws won’t stop someone who is determined enough to kill a large number of people at all costs. They won’t stop high-profile killings like have happened in recent weeks. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/12 "2012-08-06T03:09:43Z")
Moved MPSIMS --\> GD. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/13 "2012-08-06T03:10:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s harder to kill people with improvised weapons. how so? The twin towers were brought down and thousands of people were killed with a box knife. People die in building fires from a single match. If you want a lot of people dead a gun is poor choice. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/14 "2012-08-06T03:12:27Z")
You know, I’ve argued here and on someone’s FB page about SSM and frankly, I’m exhausted from it. Even before I heard about this, the fearmongering and hate being stirred up against gays, Muslims and others by “good Christians” has really been bothering me. People who talk Love while preaching Fear and Hate. I’ve been contemplating an open letter to my right wing Christian associates and just letting some thoughts roll around in my head. Do you spend your day listening to people whose job it is to make you afraid? Who spread lies because they’re not accountable, because they’re only “entertainers”? (Limbaugh, Beck, et al) If so, is it any wonder why you are so afraid of everything? Is it any wonder that it comes out as Anger and Hate? Is that really how you want to live your life? Because honestly, I don’t want to associate with people who are so afraid of the world that they live their lives filled with Anger and Hatred. That isn’t a good life, and it certainly is not how I want to be. Do you support the Constitution and Equal Rights for all people? If so, why are you preaching that they should not apply to gays and Muslims and anyone else you happen to be afraid of today? Is it because you are afraid they’ll destroy America, or because they live and believe differently than you do and you only support Equal Rights for people like you? Do you remember in Acts 17:10-15 where Paul praises the Bereans for the idea that when they hear someone preach, they immediately go home and read the gospel to be sure that what was said was true? Have you ever considered doing that? When people tell you that Obama is a Muslim, that he’s trying to enforce Sharia Law, or tell you other strange things, do you go home and research it and see if it’s true? Or do you believe it without question? Are you aware of how much both the old and the new testament rail against slanders, liars and rumormongers? That it is considered a grievous sin and at every turn every prophet and disciple in the entire bible says such people will suffer God’s wrath? Does it not concern you to be sending out emails or posting things on boards or on Facebook that are patently, verifiably false and malicious? That you could verify were false with a few minutes of your time? Or that are just plain hateful and intended to insult or cause harm? Is this a Christian Virtue? Is this how you truly are or want to be? Please tell me that this is not who you are. Because if it is, I am ashamed of you, and I do not want any part of such darkness. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/15 "2012-08-06T03:14:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > how so? The twin towers were brought down and thousands of people were killed with a box knife. And far more people die from guns every year. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/16 "2012-08-06T03:27:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And far more people die from guns every year. And far, far more people die from alcohol every year. Let’s ban that first. Oh wait, we tried that in the 1920s. It didnt’ work out so well. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/17 "2012-08-06T03:29:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And far more people die from guns every year. Taking out the suicides and accidental shootings, how many are we really talking about here? Has the number of deaths in these spectacular mass shootings gone up, down or remained relatively stable in the US for the past 3 or 4 decades? What effect has tightening and/or loosing of gun regulation ACTUALLY had on these types of deaths? And how about overall? Has the number of violent gun deaths gone up, down or remained constant in the US, despite a changing regulatory environment? The thing is, unless you are talking about a total ban on all fire-arms in the US, a la many European countries, then I don’t see how it would really effect the numbers of deaths in the US due to firearms…and certainly not these kinds of spectacular killings, most of which I think are done using illegally obtained firearms in any case (well, some of them). To me, the irony is that folks who might blithely handwave away fear over spectacular events like 9/11 as (rightfully) a one off or at least very rare event will jerk their knee and call for more regulation whenever some idiot bakes his biscuit and goes all postal on a bunch of folks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/18 "2012-08-06T03:31:37Z")
Out of all the people who drink, how many die from it? Out of all the people who swim, how many drown? Out of all the people shot at, how many die from that? These arguments about ladders and pools and cars and alcohol and how much more dangerous they are than guns do not take total sample size into account, and have no merit. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/19 "2012-08-06T03:35:26Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Out of all the people who drink, how many die from it? Out of all the people who swim, how many drown? Out of all the people shot at, how many die from that? These arguments about ladders and pools and cars and alcohol and how much more dangerous they are than guns do not take total sample size into account, and have no merit. There are more guns in the US than there are PEOPLE…so, you tell me. Granted, not all of them shoot their guns every day, or even every month, but that’s a hell of a large sample size I’d say…with a damned small number of deaths to use ratio. Unless you have some data that contradicts this? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/20 "2012-08-06T03:36:41Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Out of all the people who drink, how many die from it? Out of all the people who swim, how many drown? Out of all the people shot at, how many die from that? These arguments about ladders and pools and cars and alcohol and how much more dangerous they are than guns do not take total sample size into account, and have no merit. How many gun owners go postal versus how many alcoholics die from liver damage or kill someone while driving? A third of all adults in the US own a gun. There’s your sample size. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556.md?page=2)