# Wisconsin Sikh Temple Shooting \[and gun control\]
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 5, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556 "2012-08-05T22:31:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/201 "2012-08-09T22:47:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Have to be 21 to buy a gun, do you? Are minors not allowed in stores that sell guns?
Yes, you have to be 21 to buy a handgun. You also have to go through a waiting period and pass a background check. In most states you have to be 21 to buy alcohol and the restrictions for that are by hour of day and sometimes Sunday.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/202 "2012-08-09T22:49:01Z")
The handgun restriction hardly counts. It’s not as though you can drink beer at 18 but not hard liquor (except in Louisiana).
---
### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/203 "2012-08-09T23:00:19Z")
They are trying to outlaw guns: the calls both on this board and elsewhere for bans on “assault weapons”, or “automatic pistols”, or the recent comment by Maryland’s First Lady that no one should own an “arsenal” (which is what- more than three guns?).
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/204 "2012-08-09T23:09:52Z")
Who cares if they ban “automatic pistols”? They’re already illegal. I agree with Maryland’s first lady, too, but that sounds more like a value judgment than a policy statement.
---
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/205 "2012-08-09T23:17:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> The handgun restriction hardly counts.
well then if doesn’t count we should do away with it.
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/206 "2012-08-09T23:23:25Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> Well one they weren’t complete failures. Two regulating drugs and alcohol has been pretty effective.
>
> Very few people are advocating for outlawing guns. Most people think we should be regulating them.
>
> I fail to see why we need guns to have less restrictions on their sale then that of alcohol.
Are you really saying prohibition and the war on drugs has been successful?
That is not what the republicans will see, you only want to ban things based on arbitrary “feelings” and just like after the AWB it will hand the legislative branch to the Right.
And if regulation has been successful you should be able to provide empirical data showing it has been.
Can you provide a cite?
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/207 "2012-08-09T23:24:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> well then if doesn’t count we should do away with it.
I agree.
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/208 "2012-08-09T23:26:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Who cares if they ban “automatic pistols”? They’re already illegal. I agree with Maryland’s first lady, too, but that sounds more like a value judgment than a policy statement.
Machine guns are quite legal at a federal level, they just have a simple background check and a $200 tax.
Note, you get a tax stamp not a “licence”
This has been true from the beginning the National Firearms Act was meant to keep them from the poor.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/209 "2012-08-09T23:27:26Z")
Where are they legal at the state level?
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/210 "2012-08-09T23:29:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Yes, you have to be 21 to buy a handgun. You also have to go through a waiting period and pass a background check. In most states you have to be 21 to buy alcohol and the restrictions for that are by hour of day and sometimes Sunday.
Point of clarification, you have to be 21 to buy a handgun from a licensed firearm dealer. You can still own and possess one if it is, for example given to you as a gift or buy from a private party. (depending on your local state laws)
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/211 "2012-08-09T23:30:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Where are they legal at the state level?
If you are asking about machine-guns google says:
AL, AR, AK, AZ, CO, CT, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, MA, ME, MD, MS, MT, ND, NE, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, VT, WA, WV, WI, And WY.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/212 "2012-08-09T23:32:07Z")
Er… really?
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/213 "2012-08-09T23:34:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Er… really?
Yes, and IIRC there has only been one crime committed by a legal machine gun post 1934 and that was by a police officer.
Full auto is far less useful than you probably think it is, TV, movies and video games have presented a twisted reality.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/214 "2012-08-09T23:38:02Z")
I don’t think it’s particularly useful. I just don’t know of anyone who owns an automatic weapon.
---
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/215 "2012-08-09T23:41:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I agree.
That will certainly save people a lot of time and bother.
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/216 "2012-08-09T23:43:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s particularly useful. I just don’t know of anyone who owns an automatic weapon.
It is not something you mention in general public, they are worth a lot of money and most of the public is too ignorant to realize they are for the most part only useful for converting money into noise.
Also, if you pay the tax (and deal with safe storage laws which is harder) you can own destructive devices.
> [@](#):
>
> (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas, (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (D) missile having an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce, (E) mine or (F) similar device.
Short barreled rifles, shotguns and suppressors also require payment of a federal tax to transfer but are legal.
And to add to the oddness, flame throwers are unregulated.
(Note, I do not own nor do I wish to own any of these items)
---
### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/217 "2012-08-09T23:43:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#):
>
> Are you really saying prohibition and the war on drugs has been successful?
No, as you can read English you already knew that. I assume you know the difference between ‘not a complete failure’ and ‘successful.’
> [@](#):
>
> That is not what the republicans will see, you only want to ban things based on arbitrary “feelings” and just like after the AWB it will hand the legislative branch to the Right.
Some Republicans being blinded by ignorance is kinda what we are talking about and why we can’t reach the level of regulation even most gun owners advocate.
> [@](#):
>
> And if regulation has been successful you should be able to provide empirical data showing it has been.
>
> Can you provide a cite?
Since I think you’re goal is to send me on a fishing expedition can you at least be specific in what you want cited? Are you looking for how regulating drugs or alcohol has been successful? Gun regulation? Regulation in general? Also what do you consider to be ‘empirical data’ I doubt I could show you that for anything we are discussing as we lack a parallel universe to compare results in. I can show correlation pretty easily.
---
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/218 "2012-08-09T23:50:43Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> No, as you can read English you already knew that. I assume you know the difference between ‘not a complete failure’ and ‘successful.’
>
> Some Republicans being blinded by ignorance is kinda what we are talking about and why we can’t reach the level of regulation even most gun owners advocate.
>
> Since I think you’re goal is to send me on a fishing expedition can you at least be specific in what you want cited? Are you looking for how regulating drugs or alcohol has been successful? Gun regulation? Regulation in general? Also what do you consider to be ‘empirical data’ I doubt I could show you that for anything we are discussing as we lack a parallel universe to compare results in. I can show correlation pretty easily.
Both sides are “blinded by ignorance” The Republicans by fear of total bans and Dems who will cut off their nose to spite their face by passing do legislation that doesn’t fix the problems but does rally the republicans to the polls.
I am asking for what I said, any empirical evidence that any gun control legislation that restricted the access of firearms to law abiding citizens has reduced the rate of violent crime.
This is not a fishing expedition, this should be simple if what you claim is true.
But I will give you a hint, to my knowledge there is not a good study that show that lawful gun ownership has any correlation on violent crime, either positive or negative.
But there is evidence that it hands elections to the Republicans.
I will go as for to say that Roe v. Wade probably had more to do with reduceing violent crime than any gun law ever passed.
---
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/219 "2012-08-10T01:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=rat avatar]
If you are asking about machine-guns google says:
[/QUOTE]
Do you have a link? Because either you are being very disingenuous or my understanding of the law is flawed. My understanding is that, sure, you can legally own a machine gun (i.e. a fully automatic weapon), if you can get the correct papers (or, if the weapons is grandfathered in). But that GETTING those papers is not very easy to do unless you have the right credentials. So, fight my ignorance and show me a link to how easy it is for Joe Citizen to get a fully automatic weapon…legally. Don’t tell me how un-useful they are, don’t provide some text that you might or might not have Googled, but SHOW me the cite with a link.
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/220 "2012-08-10T03:09:46Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> Do you have a link? Because either you are being very disingenuous or my understanding of the law is flawed. My understanding is that, sure, you can legally own a machine gun (i.e. a fully automatic weapon), if you can get the correct papers (or, if the weapons is grandfathered in). But that GETTING those papers is not very easy to do unless you have the right credentials. So, fight my ignorance and show me a link to how easy it is for Joe Citizen to get a fully automatic weapon…legally. Don’t tell me how un-useful they are, don’t provide some text that you might or might not have Googled, but SHOW me the cite with a link.
One needs to pass the federal background check, get local LEO signoff and pay the taxes. If your local police chief is a dick, it’s hard to do. If not, it’s pretty easy. The thousands of guns currently in private hands is proof.
Affording the guns is a completely different challenge. No FA gun made after 1986 can be legally owned by a civilian for the most part. Simple supply and demand dictates that these pre-86 guns are usually priced well into the tens of thousands of dollars.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556.md?page=10)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556.md?page=12)