# Wisconsin Sikh Temple Shooting \[and gun control\]
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 5, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556 "2012-08-05T22:31:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/41 "2012-08-06T10:21:56Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#):
>
> These are not over-reaching regulations. Gun ownership is about personally responsibility. It is not about making money at the expense of the safety of society. But try to do anything about it and watch the NRA destroy your efforts. They are about the gun manufacture and sales industry. They do not care about people.
Given that gun owners are people it’s odd that you would say that the NRA doesn’t care about them.
> [@](#):
>
> 1: No more gun sales at gun shows. 2: Psych evaluations at least once before allowed to buy guns. 3: If you buy a gun you are meaningfully responsible for what happens with it. If you sold the guns without following the regulations and someone is killed or injured with those guns you are personally guilty of negligent harm or negligent homicide.
1. Does that include licensed gun dealers at gun shows or do you mean private sales? Are you banning all private sales or just sales at gun shows?
2. Can you name any other right in the United States where you are required to submit to a psych evaluation before you exercise it? Who pays for the psych evaluations? What conditions must be met before someone is denied their right to own a firearm?
3. That seems to be a far lower bar for negligence than is typical in the U.S. legal system. However, I’m not a lawyer. Maybe someone else can chime in.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/42 "2012-08-06T11:50:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I pretty much am. Perhaps not a total one, but regulate them to the point that they are rare and typically locked up in secure locations.
So you’re talking about something that is politically unrealistic, and even if an attempt were made, physically as likely as eliminating or destroying all (or almost all) drugs.
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/43 "2012-08-06T12:55:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> If guns are less available, you’ll see fewer shootings in general. Not that incidents like this are really very important in terms of the damage caused by guns; they are just spectacular.
Why do you assume gun laws will make guns less available? Drug laws haven’t made drugs less available.
---
### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/44 "2012-08-06T13:06:24Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#):
>
> Out of all the people who drink, how many die from it? Out of all the people who swim, how many drown? Out of all the people shot at, how many die from that? These arguments about ladders and pools and cars and alcohol and how much more dangerous they are than guns do not take total sample size into account, and have no merit.
You need to explain [why gun deaths in Switzerland are so low](http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp), when the state issues military quality rifles to every able-bodied young man as part of their militia service, and allows them to keep the weapons after their term is up.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/45 "2012-08-06T14:06:39Z")
> [@fumster](#):
>
> What a bitter person you must be.
Let’s save the personal commentary for the Pit, please.
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### Author:  [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/46 "2012-08-06T14:10:26Z")
Big story (and bold headline on Drudge) says [that the shooter is an ARMY VET!](http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/08/06/cbs-news-shooter-identified-as-former-us-military-member/)
I’m sure this is supposed to make us picture a disturbed Iraq/Afghanistan vet who had too much and his PTSD just coun’t take it…
But…
Read the story and you’ll see that he was discharged under other than honorable conditions…in 1998. Before 9-11.
In this case, the fact that he was in the military at all doesn’t county for anything. Fucking stupid news.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/47 "2012-08-06T14:20:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> The twin towers were brought down and thousands of people were killed with a box knife.
And isn’t it interesting that, as a result, regulation and security was beefed up to the point where I can’t even bring a pair of nail clippers on a plane now. And what kind of regulation/security measures do we institute as a result of the last in an endless line of mass shootings? Nothing, that would be unpatriotic.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/48 "2012-08-06T14:26:07Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> Why do you assume gun laws will make guns less available? Drug laws haven’t made drugs less available.
But gun laws have in many nations. Drugs and guns are not analogous.
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> You need to explain [why gun deaths in Switzerland are so low](http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp), when the state issues military quality rifles to every able-bodied young man as part of their militia service, and allows them to keep the weapons after their term is up.
No doubt because they are trained how to use them and to respect them as the dangerous things they are, instead of looking at them as toys or as magic wands that only kill evil people the way American gun owners tend to.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/49 "2012-08-06T14:28:29Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> You need to explain [why gun deaths in Switzerland are so low](http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp), when the state issues military quality rifles to every able-bodied young man as part of their militia service, and allows them to keep the weapons after their term is up.
Perhaps because they don’t allow them to keep the ammunition for the weapons?
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/50 "2012-08-06T14:35:58Z")
The guy was [apparently](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/06/13141505-authorities-name-alleged-gunman-in-wisconsin-sikh-temple-attack?lite) a Neo-Nazi. [This](http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2012/8/6/9/enhanced-buzz-30217-1344260567-4.jpg) is supposedly a picture of him in the band.
> [@](#):
>
> According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Page is the former leader of a neo-Nazi music group called End Apathy.
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Perhaps because they don’t allow them to keep the ammunition for the weapons?
Really? I didn’t know that.
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### Author:  [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/51 "2012-08-06T14:35:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> You know, I’ve argued here and on someone’s FB page about SSM and frankly, I’m exhausted from it. Even before I heard about this, the fearmongering and hate being stirred up against gays, Muslims and others by “good Christians” has really been bothering me. People who talk Love while preaching Fear and Hate.
>
> I’ve been contemplating an open letter to my right wing Christian associates and just letting some thoughts roll around in my head.
>
> Do you spend your day listening to people whose job it is to make you afraid? Who spread lies because they’re not accountable, because they’re only “entertainers”? (Limbaugh, Beck, et al) If so, is it any wonder why you are so afraid of everything? Is it any wonder that it comes out as Anger and Hate? Is that really how you want to live your life?
>
> Because honestly, I don’t want to associate with people who are so afraid of the world that they live their lives filled with Anger and Hatred. That isn’t a good life, and it certainly is not how I want to be.
>
> Do you support the Constitution and Equal Rights for all people? If so, why are you preaching that they should not apply to gays and Muslims and anyone else you happen to be afraid of today? Is it because you are afraid they’ll destroy America, or because they live and believe differently than you do and you only support Equal Rights for people like you?
>
> Do you remember in Acts 17:10-15 where Paul praises the Bereans for the idea that when they hear someone preach, they immediately go home and read the gospel to be sure that what was said was true? Have you ever considered doing that? When people tell you that Obama is a Muslim, that he’s trying to enforce Sharia Law, or tell you other strange things, do you go home and research it and see if it’s true? Or do you believe it without question?
>
> Are you aware of how much both the old and the new testament rail against slanders, liars and rumormongers? That it is considered a grievous sin and at every turn every prophet and disciple in the entire bible says such people will suffer God’s wrath? Does it not concern you to be sending out emails or posting things on boards or on Facebook that are patently, verifiably false and malicious? That you could verify were false with a few minutes of your time? Or that are just plain hateful and intended to insult or cause harm? Is this a Christian Virtue?
>
> Is this how you truly are or want to be?
>
> Please tell me that this is not who you are. Because if it is, I am ashamed of you, and I do not want any part of such darkness.
Requoting the whole thing, because it bears repeating. Thank you.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/52 "2012-08-06T14:42:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> [This](http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2012/8/6/9/enhanced-buzz-30217-1344260567-4.jpg) is supposedly a picture of him in the band.
After a bit of googling, I suspect that the “14” on his arm refers to [“The 14 words”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words).
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/53 "2012-08-06T14:48:39Z")
**DT** , I’m not seeing anything about him being a Neo-Nazi in the article you linked to.
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> Why do you assume gun laws will make guns less available? Drug laws haven’t made drugs less available.
Ever tried hiding a Glock in your rectum?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/54 "2012-08-06T14:52:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> **DT** , I’m not seeing anything about him being a Neo-Nazi in the article you linked to.
Um, I quoted it?
> [@](#):
>
> According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Page is the former leader of a neo-Nazi music group called End Apathy.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/55 "2012-08-06T14:53:05Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#):
>
> You need to explain [why gun deaths in Switzerland are so low](http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp), when the state issues military quality rifles to every able-bodied young man as part of their militia service, and allows them to keep the weapons after their term is up.
They let you keep the weapon so you, citizen-soldier, can be instantly ready should Zee Germans be coming. Until then, the weapon is under lock and key in your basement and you’ll get pinched if you try and use it for recreation (nevermind murderin’). And, yes, as previously noted the Swiss gvt recently ruled (2007) that while the guns would still be issued to veterans who opted to keep their weapons, the ammo was to only be distributed if and when Zee Germans came. Which defeats the purpose if you ask me, but hey.
If you want to own a civilian gun, you can - you need a permit for that though, which comes with both psych and skill tests.
Mostly, however, I would vouch the reason gun deaths in Switzerland are so low because taking the time to kill someone might make one late.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/56 "2012-08-06T14:54:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> They let you keep the weapon so you, citizen-soldier, can be instantly ready should Zee Germans be coming. Until then, the weapon is under lock and key in your basement and you’ll get pinched if you try and use it for recreation (nevermind murderin’). And, yes, as previously noted the Swiss gvt recently ruled (2007) that while the guns would still be issued to veterans who opted to keep their weapons, the ammo was to only be distributed if and when Zee Germans came.
Hmmm…it sounds like…a _well regulated militia_.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/57 "2012-08-06T14:56:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> But gun laws have in many nations. Drugs and guns are not analogous.
And gun laws have not in many nations (like Mexico). In those nations which already have lots and lots of guns in them, the gun laws are not particularly effective. I see no reason to believe that restrictive gun laws in the US would make it particularly difficult to obtain guns.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/58 "2012-08-06T14:57:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> And gun laws have not in many nations (like Mexico).
Because they are across the border from us.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/59 "2012-08-06T15:16:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#):
>
> In this case, the fact that he was in the military at all doesn’t county for anything. Fucking stupid news.
I agree that the fact that he’s a veteran can give a misleading impression, but people want to know who this guy is and this is one of the major facts. And no, you can’t necessarily say it counts for nothing based on the fact that he left the military quite a while ago. The profile here reminds me of Timothy McVeigh, although he was a much more recent veteran at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing.
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### Author:  [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-sikh-temple-shooting-and-gun-control/630556/60 "2012-08-06T15:21:36Z")
I disagree that it’s a major fact; the fact that he is one of millions of people who joined the Army during a time of peace to do an administrative job is about as relevant as what instrument he played in high school marching band.
Edit: Now, if he was discharged because of his acting on some kind of ethnic intolerance, it would be very pertinent.
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