Wisconsin vs. Utah (moving)

In My Humble Opinion
21

Thanks everyone!

Re: liquor laws. I’m not a huge drinker. I’ve been warned about the oddness with liquor laws in Salt Lake, but…well, I probably only drink 2-3 times a year.

I also don’t ski - I know, I know. I’m really, really clumsy though - like, I have scars from falling while * running *. I consider not skiing a survival mechanism. The one time I tried it, I lost a ski (not a ski pole, the actual ski) on a bunny slope. No, I’m not sure how I did it.

** pepperlandgirl ** - that sounds like a great recommendation for Salt Lake, but then you say you are ambivalent about living there? May I ask why?

I did visit both cities - I thought Utah was gorgeous, despite the late-nov brown-ness, and Milwaukee was urban-y. I didn’t get a chance to actually look around Milwaukee. They were calling for a huge snow storm, so I hauled ass out of there to avoid getting stuck. Climate-wise, I’d prefer something like Houston, but I didn’t like Houston as a city, so, that’s off the table. I’m Jewish, but non-practicing, and used to being a religious minority.

Great info - I leaning towards Milwaukee a bit. I need to do further research into their parks…

22

I grew up in Utah, then moved to CA when I was 16 and stayed there for eight years, then came back to SLC for graduate school, and to be closer to my family. While I lived in CA, I fell in love with the place. I like the food there. I like the convenience. I like the concerts. I like the weather. I like drinking good beer on a patio in the middle of January and being comfortable. I miss Trader Joe’s. My best friend lives in CA, and I visit her a few times a year, and it always feels like I’m returning to civilization. I really, really, really hate the motherfucking snow, and I resent the fact that I’m stuck here every single winter, and I’m always cold. But then I think of all the good reasons to live here and I realize that in a lot of ways, I really like it here.

I really like driving up into the mountains in the summer time and feeling the crisp, sweet air against my face. I really like the way everything is cold and brown one day, and literally the next day green has rolled across the valley. I really like the way the trees smell when they blossom. I really like driving west to the salt flats, south to the red rock country, and east in the Wasatch mountains and experiencing all of the contradictions. Quite frankly, if you think Utah is “all desert” then you are ignorant of what this state has to offer. I really like going to the various lakes nearby–Rockport, Deer Creek, Jordonelle, Mirror Lake, Point Hollow, etc.

I really like that there’s a real sense of history here. In So Cal, especially where I lived, everything felt so new. Here, though, I live next to houses that are double units (two doors, two driveways etc) because they were once polygamist houses. I like the fact that July 24th is a holiday, that there are street fairs all of the time in the summer, that there’s a huge farmer’s market, and that the city is clean. I like that even when traffic is “bad” it’s not really that bad. I used to sit on the 210 in Pasadena in 100+ weather for hours on end, moving an inch at a time. That never happens here!

So…would I move back to CA if the stars aligned correctly and I had a chance? In a heartbeat. Do I wake up every morning and wish I had a way out of this hellhole? Not at all.

23

The natural beauty in Utah is as mind-boggling as it is varied. I’d love to spend some time there to see more of it but I don’t know if I’d want to put down roots.

Will you be closer to family in one place or the other? Is that important to you?

I would lean towards SLC mainly because you have an opportunity to live somewhere unique and beautiful and not have to be scrounging around for a living or working a crappy job just for the priviledge of living there.

24

Um, what? Wisconsin, not so much snow? On which alternate Earth? :dubious:

25

Pretty sure they were describing the quality of the snow - from a skiers perspective - and not so much the quantity. Utah has fantastic snow, Wisconsin just has a lot of it.

26

Move to Utah, if you only drink two or three times a year your customs will be alien to we Midwesterners. :slight_smile:

27

One could say the same thing about the Latin Kings in Milwaukee.

28

the lake is less salty, and milwaukee has the better time zone.

29

I spent a sum total of 3 months in SLC about 9 years ago. I worked for a company with main offices split between SF and SLC (talk about culture clash!).

My impression as an outsider was that doing outdoorsy stuff is a big part of the culture. I was invited camping while I was there, and one of the social activities we had was a hike followed by pizza and pop. Work socials in our Chicago office were pizza followed by beer and more beer, the contrast stood out.

As a general comment, if you are moving for work then you will probably be more affected by the culture of your office than the culture of the larger city. Neither town is really a “rat-race” kinda place, but if your office is run by top-10 MBA types then that is what you’ll be dealing with all day. It would be fair at this point to ask to speak with one or two junior folks in the office just to pick their brain, they should be happy to set that up for you.

30

I grew up in Salt Lake, but moved to Japan almost 20 years ago. My family is still there, so I visit once a year or so. SLC has really changed over the years. Less “Mormon” I guess.

That said, the often is a large cultural difference between Mormons and non-Mormons, especially in Utah where they are the majority. One of my professors talked about it, giving an example of someone moving in new to SLC and invites her neighbor over for coffee. The neighbor is Mormon, doesn’t drink coffee and has water or something else instead, and for some reason it becomes awkward. Since she (the neighbor) doesn’t have any coffee at her house, she doesn’t reciprocate, and the two don’t become friends.

While not all Mormons become awkward, many don’t know how to relate to non-Mormons. My mother, for example, had never been at the same table as someone who was drinking until a work-related party when she was in her 60s.

My mother is a good woman, but just has never had non-Mormon friends and isn’t aware of her insensitivities.

Most Mormons outside of Utah seem to me to be more open, and I’m sure it comes from just being around more non-Mormons. (One exception is my aunt, who lived in Illinois for 40 years and still never had any non-Mormon friends.)

When I was going to school, at the University of Utah, group of student friends naturally tended to fall into Mormons or non-Mormons. Sometimes companies get that way as well.

This can be one reason why the potential for friends can be less. If you get into a situation where there’s a strong Mormon clique, for example, it can be harder to get into the group.

Recently, as the number of non-Mormons is increasing, perhaps this tendency could be decreasing. I just visit and don’t live there anymore, so YMMV.

31

Milwaukee has lots to offer for someone who is outdoorsy. A great parks system and plenty of places to jog, bike trails, etc. In summer, there is never nothing to do, constant festivals.

If you’re not a big drinker, no big deal, but keep in mind that the drinking culture here is firmly entrenched into the citys’ psyche. Beer is available nearly everywhere, county sports, even neighborhood church festivals (where one can also gamble for cash and liquor!)

I’m guessing that the variety and quality of food you find here would beat SLC by a mile.

If you did choose to move to Milwaukee, and want to rent, you should ask us which suburb or neighborhood to move to. 1 block can make a HUGE difference in quality of life or crime.

ETA:

Some find our accent nasaly and annoying. They can go suck on a bubbler.

32

But so’s soda water! :smiley:

33

Salt Lake actually gets slightly more snow (in terms of inches as fallen) than Milwaukee in an average year: 58 inches vs. 47 inches. [cite] But Utah snow is a lot lighter and fluffier, so it makes less water when melted.

In looking through my copy of the Places Rated Almanac, it seem that in terms of education, recreation, crime, transportation, and the arts, they seem to be pretty evenly matched. Milwaukee has an edge in health care.

If I had to pick one, I’d go with Salt Lake, but I could be happy in either. Winters are milder in Salt Lake, if somewhat snowier. Sure, it gets hot in the summer, but the lower humidity just about makes up for it. I’m unusually sensitive to humidity, though. Milwaukee is also cloudier. I’m not a big fan of the water, so I’d much rather be close to the mountains than to the Great Lakes. Being close to a major city like Chicago isn’t much of a draw for me. If it’s important to you, you need to realize Salt Lake isn’t close to anything. Salt Lake seems to have an edge in economic strength. The unemployment rate as of November 2008 was 3.4%, versus 5.5% in Milwaukee.

34

Does this look like chopped liver to you?

35

Keep in mind though that do the giant fucking lake, Salt Lake City feels very muggy in the summer. I mean, I’m sure it’s not as bad as say, New Orleans, but I find it excruciating.

Oh, and if you have any respiratory problems or illnesses, SLC might not be the best choice. Due to the mountains and weather patterns, the valley gets very smoggy, what’s known as the inversion layer. It clears up after each storm, but sometimes it’s so bad that you can’t even see the very large mountains that are very nearby. Last week when I drove home, the big displays on the freeways flashed the message “Poor air quality, reduce driving if possible.” I mean, I want to stress, it isn’t like this always. Yesterday, when I drove to work the sky was so blue, for so far, that it took my breath away (in the good way).

36

A good friend of mine from high school - we grew up in Northern California, which has a large Mormon population - is Mormon and went to BYU. She loved it first, but she and her husband (of course she got married while she was there) eventually moved back to California because she didn’t fit in with the Utah Mormons, who were more politically and socially conservative than she is. (Also, she got tired of the snowy winters.) Thanks to parties she had where I would be one of the few non-Mormons around, I’ve heard a lot about this sort of thing - there is apparently something of a cultural split between the Utah and California Mormons.

This is what makes me think that I - a liberal atheist - wouldn’t do all that well in Utah, despite its great natural beauty. If my moderately conservative, devout LDS friend couldn’t handle it, there’s no way I could.

ETA: Of course, my friend lived in Provo. SLC would be better.

37

Well, but see Kyla, a liberal atheist wouldn’t have to hang out with Mormons all the time, whereas a liberal Mormon in Utah does have to. The LDS Church requires a lot of commitment from members; there’s a lot to do and everyone is expected to do some of the work. I can’t just avoid the people in my church; I have to put up with the ones I don’t like, but you don’t have to.

There is a cultural divide between “Utah Mormons” and pretty much everyone else in the LDS Church, and it does seem to come from living in the highly-concentrated areas. I’m not sure it’s as big as one hears about, though; I mean, half my LDS high-school friends live in Utah now, and a lot of my current LDS friends are from there. There’s a lot of moving around. But, anyway, any majority population is going to do something similar.

Whenever I visit Utah, I have this weird feeling that suddenly it matters who is LDS or not. Every person I meet, I tend to think “is this person LDS? or not? and do they think I am? and if they aren’t Mormon, are they going to dislike me?” It’s very strange; I never do it anywhere else. I don’t know if actual Utah Mormons do it at all. But I’m always a bit nervous that someone will dislike me because of it. If natives feel like that, it might account for some of the reserve; there might be this assumption that a non-LDS person is not very happy about being so much in the minority and that he won’t want to be friends, or else that any friendliness on your part will be automatically assumed to be a desire to convert him and that’s the only reason you’re even talking with him.

I would not like living in Utah. I think it’s harder to raise LDS kids there, actually, in some ways. But if I were a better person, I wouldn’t judge a whole area like that, so I’m working on it.

38

Is this a joke?

39

No. I used to travel to SLC at least once a month and ended up buying a membership to a bar (Market Street Tavern?) downtown so I had a place to go.

Utah has bizarre liquor laws.

40

It depends on the bar. Places that just serve beer, you don’t have to be sponsored or have a membership. For “private clubs”, where you can get mixed drinks, you have to be a member or have a sponsor. Membership usually goes like this:

Are you a member?
No.
Wanna be?
Yes.
Sign this book. You have someone with you?
Yeah.
That’s your guest.
Awesome, thanks.
What can I get you?

Or
Are you a member?
No.
Wanna be?
No, I’m just visiting.
Okay, then you can just be a guest.
Awesome, thanks.
What can I get you?

“Private clubs” don’t have any interest in making your life difficult, or keeping you from the booze.