# Wisconsin - will Walker win be hugely detrimental to Democrats in general elections? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 25, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040 "2012-05-25T03:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/21 "2012-05-30T02:02:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, “large turnout” is good for Dems and bad for Pubs, generally speaking. Not for the last several years. Large turnouts have been the reason Walker and many Republicans are being elected. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/22 "2012-05-30T02:23:19Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > Rachel Maddow posits that in the post-Citizens United world, that the removal of union’s bargaining rights will erase the biggest Democratic fund-raising bloc; ensuring a future where GOP can outspend Dems by a ridiculous margin in every election. > > So I’d say it’s kind of a big deal. Maybe Democrats should try to appeal to more people who have money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/23 "2012-05-30T02:33:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Maybe Democrats should try to appeal to more people who have money. Maybe Libertarians should try to appeal to more people who hate freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/24 "2012-05-30T02:36:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maybe Libertarians should try to appeal to more people who hate freedom. Uh . . . what? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/25 "2012-05-30T02:49:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Uh . . . what? **BrainGlutton** ’s point, apparently, is that Democrat platform/ideology is as inherently antithetical to people who have money as the Libertarian platform/ideology is to people who hate freedom. It’s nice and refreshing when lefties once in a while speak truthfully. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/26 "2012-05-30T02:53:19Z")
> [@terr](#): > > **brainglutton** ’s point, apparently, is that democrat platform/ideology is as inherently antithetical to people who have money as the libertarian platform/ideology is to people who hate freedom. ☹ **If only!** But the point is that it’s almost equally impossible in either case. The Soroses and Buffetts of the socioeconomic firmament are far, far outnumbered and outspent by the Kochs and the Scaifes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/27 "2012-05-30T02:59:43Z")
And the Dems can’t change that without sacrificing everything that is worthwhile about the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/28 "2012-05-30T03:00:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It seems the anti-Walker forces were able get enough signatures to create several recalls but I believe the Democrats have lost all but one. And they lost the Supreme Court Justice vote. > > Getting enough signatures, legal or otherwise, is nowhere near enough people to actually vote someone into office. There are very few people in Wisconsin who aren’t aware of this election and I suspect another large turnout. The Republicans have been on an upswing since Walker was elected. Actually the Democrats won two of the five recall elections against Republican Senators who had won in 2008, a Democratic year in Wisconsin. That got the Democrats within one vote of the overall majority and with the aid of the one (and only) moderate Republican, have been able to block much of the Fitzwalkers’ second year radical plan. 2010 Wisconsin voter turnout was 50.9%. Turnout in 2008 when Obama carried the state, was 70.9%. Go figure the implications. So far, early voting turnout has been heavy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/29 "2012-05-30T03:07:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Too often, political ads do NOT tell us what the candidate actually stands for, they merely give reasons, real and imagined, NOT to vote for the other guy. Did he vote (gasp) to raise the debt ceiling? Must be a big spending liberal! Did he not support the Patriot Act? Must be a terrorist!. And so on and on and on. Well, then the way to fix that is to make them have to tell the truth, not eliminate them altogether and thus give people no information. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/30 "2012-05-30T03:16:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, then the way to fix that is to make them have to tell the truth, not eliminate them altogether and thus give people no information. As I said in [this GD thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653227) Whoa! Let’s not get into **content** restrictions here! Freedom of speech has to include the freedom to lie, and that is important to political speech too, with each side calling the other liars routinely. George Orwell wrote that “Freedom means the freedom to say that two and two make four. Once that is granted, all else follows.” “All else” includes, must include, the freedom to say that two and two make five. And, of course, there are plenty of ways to let the candidates get their message out without letting them **buy** the airtime. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/31 "2012-05-30T04:35:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think, from the Dems’ POV, in terms of morale/credibility/momentum going into November, the upside potential of winning this one is a **lot** bigger than the downside potential of losing it. They had better hope so as they really poured money into the recall. I think they’ve misjudged the mood of the state but I don’t live in Wiscosin so that’s idle speculation. I will note than the anti-Walker camp tended to be extremely vocal on these boards which put me off and I think may have put other people off too if they were similarly inclined in person. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/32 "2012-05-30T04:44:45Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > They had better hope so as they really poured money into the recall. I think they’ve misjudged the mood of the state but I don’t live in Wiscosin so that’s idle speculation. I will note than the anti-Walker camp tended to be extremely vocal on these boards which put me off and I think may have put other people off too if they were similarly inclined in person. Just my two cents. What, they could win by being **less** vocal? When does that ever work? Nixon didn’t get the “silent majority” vote by being silent. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/33 "2012-05-30T15:41:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, they could win by being **less** vocal? When does that ever work? Nixon didn’t get the “silent majority” vote by being silent. Change vocal for obnoxious. They personified Walker as the root of all evil. It was over the top and I think it will hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/34 "2012-05-30T16:31:00Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Change vocal for obnoxious. They personified Walker as the root of all evil. It was over the top and I think it will hurt them. Walker lied under oath to a Congressional committee. Walker is likely to be indicted sometime after the recall election. Walker promised 250,000 jobs for Wisconsin and has delivered close to zero. Walker lied about his intentions wrt labor unions during the 2010 campaign. The Fitzwalkers violated Wisconsin’s open meetings law and circumvented normal legislative processes to pass their radical agenda. The Fitzwalkers have been running dirty tricks throughout the recall process including the recent text message scam, running Republicans as Democrats in primaries to delay the process, filing early intent to recall in order to give Walker a jump on fund raising, etc. The man has the same level of honesty as Richard Nixon. He’s a sleazeball with no charm. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald\_Hobbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@Reginald\_Hobbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reginald_Hobbes)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/35 "2012-05-31T01:09:43Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Walker lied under oath to a Congressional committee. > > Walker is likely to be indicted sometime after the recall election. > Walker lied about his intentions wrt labor unions during the 2010 campaign. > > The Fitzwalkers violated Wisconsin’s open meetings law and circumvented normal legislative processes to pass their radical agenda. > > The Fitzwalkers have been running dirty tricks throughout the recall process including the recent text message scam, … I would like to see your evidence for the above claims. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/36 "2012-05-31T01:45:59Z")
> [@Reginald\_Hobbes](#): > > I would like to see your evidence for the above claims. I’ll help. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Walker lied under oath to a Congressional committee. [Here:](http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/154162605.html#!page=2&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst) > [@](#): > > Madison – Three Democrats on a U.S. House committee asked Gov. Scott Walker on Friday to answer questions about his testimony before their committee last year in light of a video that recently surfaced in which Walker talked about employing a “divide and conquer” strategy. > > Walker last year testified before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform to talk about a law he championed that all but ended collective bargaining for public workers in Wisconsin. When he appeared before the committee, he said “no” when asked if he “had a conversation with respect to (his) actions in Wisconsin and using them to punish members of the opposition party and their donor base.” > > A month before Walker introduced his bill to repeal collective bargaining, Walker met with Beloit billionaire Diane Hendricks, who asked him if “we’ll ever get to be a completely red state and work on these unions” and approve a law putting limits on private-sector unions. > > “Well, we’re going to start in a couple weeks with our budget adjustment bill. The first step is we’re going to deal with collective bargaining for all public employee unions, because you use divide and conquer,” Walker responded, according to recently released video of the exchange. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Walker is likely to be indicted sometime after the recall election. He’s referring to [this investigation.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/judge-overseeing-walker-probe-sees-no-partisanship-ai5k116-155850525.html) In response to which, [Walker has already started building a legal defense fund.](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/scott-walker-john-doe-investigation-explained) > [@](#): > > UPDATE 3, Friday, March 9, 5:40 p.m.: Gov. Scott Walker announced the creation of his own legal defense fund in connection with the John Doe probe that has so far resulted in criminal charges against former Walker aides when he was Milwaukee County executive. (For details on those charges, see above.) > > Walker’s creation of a legal defense fund is the strongest sign yet that the governor may be directly implicated in the ongoing investigation, led by the Milwaukee County district attorney. As [WisPolitics.com](http://WisPolitics.com) notes, Wisconsin law says that individuals may start a legal defense fund only if they’re under investigation or being charged for violating state campaign finance or election laws. Under state law, Walker can’t ask for contributions to the legal defense fund, but he can transfer campaign donations to the defense fund if the donor okays the transfer. In January, Walker’s recall campaign said it had raised $4.5 million between December 11 and January 17, and that it had more than $2.6 million on hand. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Walker promised 250,000 jobs for Wisconsin and has delivered close to zero. [Here.](http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2012/05/dispatches_xxi.html)[PolitiFact Wisconsin is slightly kinder,](http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/promises/walk-o-meter/promise/526/create-250000-new-jobs/) rating this promise as “In The Works.” I’ll let **BABucky** field the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald\_Hobbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@Reginald\_Hobbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reginald_Hobbes)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/37 "2012-05-31T03:49:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > When he appeared before the committee, he said “no” when asked if he “had a conversation with respect to (his) actions in Wisconsin and **using them to punish members of the opposition party and their donor base**.” The bolded does not appear in the transcript of the video. > [@](#): > > He’s referring to [this investigation.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/judge-overseeing-walker-probe-sees-no-partisanship-ai5k116-155850525.html) In response to which, [Walker has already started building a legal defense fund.](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/scott-walker-john-doe-investigation-explained) Thanks, I was aware of the investigation. What I was asking for was proof of an imminent indictment. The legal defense fund may or may not indicate Walker’s in trouble. The fact that they are looking for evidence to connect him to the actions of his aides may be enough to trigger the “under investigation” clause of the defense fund law, even if they find nothing. But, I am not a lawyer, so I don’t know that for sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/38 "2012-05-31T17:23:49Z")
[BREAKING: MAJOR REVELATIONS IN JOHN DOE PROBE - Scott Walker Inadvertently Admits He is Under Investigation:](http://www.politiscoop.com/us-politics/wisconsin-politics/1422-breaking-major-revelations-in-john-doe-probe-scott-walker-mistakenly-admits-he-is-under-investigation.html) > [@](#): > > MADISON – Following reports that Scott Walker’s criminal defense fund grew by $100,000 in May, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is today reporting major revelations in the John Doe criminal corruption probe, including Scott Walker’s mistaken admission that he is under investigation. > > Scott Walker mistakenly admits that he is a target in the John Doe criminal corruption probe > > Walker, in a rare moment of candor, stated to reporters that he would not use the criminal defense fund to pay for the legal defenses of his aides, who have been charged with crimes ranging from child enticement, to theft from veterans and the families of fallen soldiers, to misuse of taxpayer resources to illegally campaign for Scott Walker, and would instead use the funds for himself or his campaign. > > Wisconsin law is very clear: an elected official can only establish a legal defense fund if they, or their agent, are under investigation for, charged with, or convicted of violations of Wisconsin’s campaign finance and election laws. > > Nothing provides for an elected official creating a legal defense fund for the sole purpose of campaign compliance, assisting the prosecution or aiding an investigation, as Scott Walker claims he is doing. > > Since he is not paying for the defense of an agent acting on his behalf, it is now clear that **Scott Walker is under investigation.** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/39 "2012-05-31T17:30:30Z")
He might just not know the law. Anyway, I don’t think he can be held to the “250,000 jobs” promise. That’s campaign puffery. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040/40 "2012-05-31T17:34:37Z")
Some say there was a reason the Walker people didn’t try harder to challenge the petition signatures and delay the date of the recall election. Some say he didn’t want to be campaigning while under indictment. Now he can sink a boat load of money into beating back the recall, hope charges aren’t brought until after the June election, then focus his attention on beating back the charges once (if) they arrive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wisconsin-will-walker-win-be-hugely-detrimental-to-democrats-in-general-elections/623040.md?page=3)