# Wise Men **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 22, 2005, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571 "2005-04-22T08:54:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SteveTom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SteveTom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveTom)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/1 "2005-04-22T08:54:03Z")
[What’s the deal with the three wise men?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mwisemen.html) In this report, the questioner Ben Reeves suggested that the story of the three wise men “kind of seems like European ego boosting to me”. I’m surprised Euty didn’t pick up on the fact that Palestine isn’t actually in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/2 "2005-04-22T12:51:42Z")
Perhaps Ben was talking about the bibles being European. Still, I’m not sure why he would expect a “conversion of faith where they were from”. A conversion to what? Besides, how many charismatic and evangelical astronomers are there? Regardless, Euty also says “Certainly the episode has its fishy aspects” but doesn’t mention [the weird behavior of the Star that he discussed before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=2713). ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/3 "2005-04-22T14:23:45Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > Perhaps Ben was talking about the bibles being European. But the Bible isn’t European. Indeed, in the context, “European” is meaningless. The Bible is a product of the _oikoumene_, the classical “world” of three continents, centered on the Mediterranean, which was shattered by Islam – but not until long after any part of the Christian Bible was written. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/4 "2005-04-22T14:42:00Z")
Yahbut, you [pick and choose](http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/rcc+bible001.asp) (sorry about the Jack Chick reference! 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/5 "2005-04-22T16:00:57Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > Yahbut, you [pick and choose](http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/rcc+bible001.asp) (sorry about the Jack Chick reference! 🙂 ) You should be. Jack Chick worships Tashlan. ---
**Author:** ![Kevin\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kevin\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevin_Brown)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/6 "2005-04-22T16:49:52Z")
It is thought that the “wise men” refer to men who study astrology, something that would make them “wise”, i.e. knowing more than what is in the present or predicting the future. This idea, I believe, comes from the reference of “we have seen his star” the “wise men” use to identify the king of the jews. ---
**Author:** ![cheetah777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90db22/32.png) [@cheetah777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheetah777)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/7 "2005-04-22T17:14:14Z")
I once heard a talk about the historicity of the massacre of children at Bethlehem. Apparently, at the time Bethlehem was one of a series of small outposts that ringed the cultivated fields surrounding Jerusalem–more along the lines of a bivouac than a town. The number of children living there at any given time would have been very small, and the number of male children even smaller (maybe 10-30). This doesn’t say anything as to whether or not it really happened, but it does make the scenario a little more plausible. Herod certainly performed much more heinous deeds that were recorded in the secular record. ---
**Author:** ![Aeidein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Aeidein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeidein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/8 "2005-04-22T22:02:59Z")
The Bible never says how long it took the wise men to reach Jesus. Considering the distance they had to travel, they probably reached Him about 2-3 years after His birth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/9 "2005-04-23T00:51:06Z")
> [@Aeidein](#): > > The Bible never says how long it took the wise men to reach Jesus. Considering the distance they had to travel, they probably reached Him about 2-3 years after His birth. It also doesn’t say when they started, so it cancels out. ---
**Author:** ![trillian001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@trillian001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trillian001)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/10 "2005-04-23T15:03:43Z")
Having just returned from Israel last week I learned a bit about this very matter! You will see ‘oriental’ restaurants all over the place in Arab and Jewish areas. That means you will be getting Middle Eastern food–NOT chow mein or tempura. The wise men from the ‘Orient’ were more than likely Jewish sages of the time checking to see if prophecy was coming true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/11 "2005-04-23T16:38:30Z")
> [@trillian001](#): > > Having just returned from Israel last week I learned a bit about this very matter! You will see ‘oriental’ restaurants all over the place in Arab and Jewish areas. That means you will be getting Middle Eastern food–NOT chow mein or tempura. The wise men from the ‘Orient’ were more than likely Jewish sages of the time checking to see if prophecy was coming true. We’re beginning to reach the point of pretending that the Bible was written in English. The word translated “wise men” is “magoi” – [ol] [li]Magians, members of a certain Median tribe[/li][li]Persian wise men, dream interpreters[/li][li]magicians, especially frauds[/li][/ol]The word translated “orient” is “anatolon” – astronomical rising – _i.e.,_ the east. (Note the modern English name “Anatolia”, more or less equivalent to “Asia Minor”, which in classical times was the eastern part of Greece.) ---
**Author:** ![Chanteuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de053/32.png) [@Chanteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chanteuse)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/12 "2005-04-23T16:55:17Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > It also doesn’t say when they started, so it cancels out. However, there are references to Jesus’ age: Matthew 2:11 “And when they were come into the house, they saw the **young child** with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.” and Matthew 2:16 “Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, **from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men**.” Of course, these aren’t specific dates or anything, but it does give _some_ idea of age and time. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/13 "2005-04-24T12:22:24Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > Yahbut, you [pick and choose](http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/rcc+bible001.asp) (sorry about the Jack Chick reference! 🙂 ) This seems to be a link to a “who wrote the bible” site. May I suggest, since you’re talking New Testament here, that you might try **Eutychus** ’s effort: [Who wrote the bible (Part 4 - Who wrote the New Testament?"](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html) … and that will give you links to Parts 1 - 3 (Who wrote the Old Testament?)" and Part 5 (How did the Bible get compiled?). The most extensive and lengthy Staff Report to date! ---
**Author:** ![TsviR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@TsviR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TsviR)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/14 "2005-04-24T19:31:40Z")
The story of thewise men, magi or whatever you will is like many of the stories about the life of “Jesus”. It is a theme repeated about many of the mythical man gods who are/were worshipped by various nations throughout the “east”. See [http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen](http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen) Inquisitive Atheists - God-Men Like Jesus (Krishna, Mithra, Horus, Attis, Buddha, and more) - Kirshna Specifically Osiris, Horus, Krishna, were visited by wise men with gifts. Many of the other details - birthday, teaching in temple at early age, carpenter father, etc, are repeated in regard to at least a dozen of these man gods whose stories appeared hundreds or even over a thousand years before the stories of the alleged Jesus. To the extent that there was a historical Jesus at all, he is a composite of at least four people who lived over a period of at least 200 years. They were involved in sorcery, immorality, and denied various aspects of biblical law and faith. Tsvi Rogin ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/15 "2005-04-24T19:51:50Z")
> [@TsviR](#): > > To the extent that there was a historical Jesus at all, he is a composite of at least four people who lived over a period of at least 200 years. That’s sounds like just nonsense. What do you think you have to back that up? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/16 "2005-04-24T22:06:24Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > That’s sounds like just nonsense. What do you think you have to back that up? I’m not saying it isn’t nonsense, but there have been a few books published that make this claim. [The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0932813747/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_b/104-9570489-7181518?v=glance&s=books&st=*) [The Jesus Mysteries: Was the “Original Jesus” a Pagan God?](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609807986/qid=1114380178/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9570489-7181518?v=glance&s=books) [The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968601405/ref=pd_sim_b_3/104-9570489-7181518?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance) ---
**Author:** ![solomani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@solomani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solomani)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/17 "2005-04-25T08:43:22Z")
First the word is magi and king isn’t necessarily the correct translation. Astronomer or astrologer would be closer to the mark. Its quite possible, and accepted by many theologians, that the magi were from Babylon/Persia. These were either converts to Judaism or Jewish descendents who were well aware of the prophecy and looked for the signs (from the time of exile). Once they saw the signs they headed to Bethlehem (or followed the star). There is no mention of how many there were but I don’t think that’s really relevant. More specific information [here](http://www.tektonics.org/af/birthnarr.html) and I hate to say it, its a better answer than that provided by my beloved Straight-Dope … I also noticed the staff reporter made the comment that “As usual, the easiest answer is always the best.” Well how about the most straightforward reading of the text? Magi followed a star and found Jesus and gave him gifts. No need to dig deeper than this unless you want to get into the Greek which I would suspect supports this straightforward reading. > [@TsviR](#): > > The story of thewise men, magi or whatever you will is like many of the stories about the life of “Jesus”. It is a theme repeated about many of the mythical man gods who are/were worshipped by various nations throughout the “east”. > > See [http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen](http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen) > Inquisitive Atheists - God-Men Like Jesus (Krishna, Mithra, Horus, Attis, Buddha, and more) - Kirshna Actually all these “copy cat” accusations have been thoroughly debunked multiple times. Specifically you can read the related articles at [Christian-Thinktank](http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html) or [Tekton](http://www.tektonics.org/) ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/18 "2005-04-25T08:54:51Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > I’m not saying it isn’t nonsense, but there have been a few books published that make this claim. That “he is a composite of at least four people who lived over a period of at least 200 years”? > [@](#): > > [The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0932813747/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_b/104-9570489-7181518?v=glance&s=books&st=*) From the webpage: “Author Acharya makes the case that there was no actual person named Jesus, but that several characters were rolled into one mythic being inspired by the deities Mithras, Heracles/Hercules, Dionysus and many others of the Roman Empire.” > [@](#): > > [The Jesus Mysteries: Was the “Original Jesus” a Pagan God?](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609807986/qid=1114380178/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9570489-7181518?v=glance&s=books) From that webpage: “first century Jewish mystics adapted the potent symbolism of the Osiris-Dionysus myths into a myth of their own, the hero of which was the Jewish dying and resurrecting godman Jesus. Therefore, the story of Jesus is a consciously crafted vehicle for encoded spiritual teachings created by Jewish Gnostics.” > [@](#): > > [The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968601405/ref=pd_sim_b_3/104-9570489-7181518?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance) Similar stuff there. Doesn’t seem to be any support for the notion in any of the three books. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/19 "2005-04-25T11:22:00Z")
::: Moderator pounds gavel for attention ::: The question of whether Jesus really existed was discussed by Cecil: [Did Jesus really exist?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html) and so properly belongs in the forum COMMENTS ON CECIL’S COLUMNS or in the forum GREAT DEBATES. But not here, and not in this thread. This thread should be about the Staff Report on the Magi. Thanks for your prompt attention. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571/20 "2005-04-25T17:38:14Z")
What I want to know is which one gave the tortoiseshell comb? RR [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wise-men/300571.md?page=2)