# Wish I could be a patriot, but I hate Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936 "2003-03-29T00:54:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/21 "2003-03-29T05:21:11Z")
What scares me is how Bush’s policies are making me fear for the future of this country. I love this country, in terms of living in the USA allows me to do things that I do every day I couldn’t even contemplate doing in most parts of the world – get paid to go to school studying fruit flies, get trained in the most advanced medical fields in the world, all under the support of a government actively involved in pushing independent free research. This is just the tip of the iceberg, of course. Free speech, freedom of information, freedoms of religion and association. What scares me is how I can easily contemplate leaving this country for Europe, Australia, or Asia in the future, provided we continue along the same path that Bush is setting. America is changing. Unfettered corporate access to all levels of government, blithely ignoring conflicts of interest, rollback of freedoms mostly unnecessarily, withdrawal from the international community, increased influence of a narrow scope of fundamentalist Christianity on a wide range of governmental policies, concentration of the media leading to reductions in freedom of the press, increased unilateralism, increased anti-intellectualism, increased military priorities all the while basically ignoring problems in the environment and education system. I could go on for hours. Bush’s policies are changing America into something I don’t like, in that he is taking us away from the human rights and freedoms that I associate with the ideals behind America. Don’t be afraid that loathing Bush will make you less patriotic; as I see it, opposing Bush makes you more patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/22 "2003-03-29T05:22:39Z")
It’s all right … You can be a true patriot and _still_ hate Shrub. He’s the first selected executive our nation’s ever had. Not only that, he’s blurring the boundaries dividing church and state like no other commander in chief throughout history. Let go … allow yourself to feel good about being an American, without any loyalty whatsoever to Shrub and his corrupt minions. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/23 "2003-03-29T05:47:46Z")
> [@](#): > > The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. **To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.** Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else. (Emphasis mine.) Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918 ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/24 "2003-03-29T06:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duckster \* > \*\*(Emphasis mine.)Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918 \*\* Most timely and excellent! ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/25 "2003-03-29T06:34:18Z")
I’ve always liked his ‘Speak softly and carry a big stick’ comment as well. That’s good foreign policy, not this 8th grade-level crap we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Thomas\_Stearns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Thomas\_Stearns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thomas_Stearns)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/26 "2003-03-29T07:11:14Z")
Frankly I like Bush. The man responded to 911 without wavering, and never let go of the terrorist issue. He’s not getting bogged down in the quagmire of politics and world opinion. He was advised on what he needed to do to make the country a safer place and he’s doing it. He’s not apologizing for it, he jumped in the saddle, looked for a posse, and is now shooting it out. Let’s face it, it’s political suicide and he had the guts to do it because deep down, he thinks it was the right thing to do for this country. “You can’t make everyone happy, you can only do what you think is right.”. That’s what my grandmother told me when i became a police officer. The problem here is that alot of people think that by saying they hate Bush, they are automatically accorded the status of being the intellectual outsider, the rebel going against mass opinion. Going against popular opinion does’nt make you an intellect, however. I don’t think alot of people reaize what is involved in being president and they make harsh judgements accordingly. Oh, and we did elect Bush. Look at the electoral votes. And which state was the one that put him over the top? There was’nt just one, all the states that voted for Bush put him over the top, and if all these states were “marred with shenanigans” then what’s to say that Al Gore should’ve been elected. If these results were so unreliable then how will we ever have a fair election? Anyone who wins will automatically have the other team declare shenannegans and then there’s no legitimacy for any leader we elect. But then again, I don’t know anything, I’m just some hippie-hating, rabid conservative who’d kill puppies if I thought it would make me a buck. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/27 "2003-03-29T07:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*The point is that in the state that put him over the election was marred with shenanigans. That is until the SCOTUS stepped in and said enough! We want Bush. \*\* Over simplify much? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/28 "2003-03-29T07:36:01Z")
I am thrilled to be an American, and I deeply love my country. I am ashamed of the current leadership, however, and I want the world to know that I am one patriotic American who wishes nothing more than to abjectly apologize for it’s horrible behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/29 "2003-03-29T07:38:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Thomas Stearns_ > The man responded to 911 without wavering, and never let go of the terrorist issue Well, can he go back to dealing with the terrorist issue? He hasn’t convinced most of the world and a fair amount of Americans that Saddam is in league with BinLaden. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/30 "2003-03-29T13:21:48Z")
A lot of conservatives appear to be deeply confused as to Saddam’s role in 9/11. It was, so far as we know, nonexistent. But the RNC memo says Saddam did it, so… ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/31 "2003-03-29T13:48:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\* …and his corrupt minions. \*\* Actually, I don’t object nearly as much to Bush’s “minions” as to Bush himself. I think Colin Powell is a decent guy and a good SecState. I like Condoleeza Rice. I question Donald Rumsfeld’s honesty with the media, but not his competence, whereas with Bush I question both. Dick Cheney is at least smarter than Bush, although he disappointed me with his semi-fascist defense of military tribunals. Ashcroft . . . well, okay, I can’t think of anything good to say about Ashcroft. Actually, I think he’s the only guy in the administration worse than Bush himself. Beware, this man wants to be president himself. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/32 "2003-03-29T14:12:05Z")
**To the OP** : I’m not an American, but I think that some of the things you say are true. However, America’s a great country that has done some great things. Don’t give up, America. At your best, you’ve been a shining light for the world; you can lift yourself from your current low. Just don’t let those who wish to take away your freedoms do so, even if they do go by the title of President. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/33 "2003-03-29T19:30:54Z")
**Thomas** , I don’t think you’re a raving Conservative or anything like that (I consider myself a moderate), but I don’t think that your posse analogy is a good way to interact with other nations. Diplomacy, good diplomacy, involves taking your allies’ concerns into consideration before you act and making sure that the cost of whatever action you take doesn’t outweigh the benefits. I don’t argue that we shouldn’t be in Iraq right now–it makes sense from both a moral and a practical standpoint. The way in which we went in though smacks of arrogance and incompetence. Bush should have explained ‘why’ to both our allies and to the American citizenry (the people that are bleeding and dying for us right now). He did neither convincingly. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/34 "2003-03-29T20:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > I’m a patriot because I beleive that of all the nations that have ever existed there has been no other with our capacity and desire to do good, and I believe that there is none that has none as much good. So a patriot is one who thinks their country is the “best”? No wonder “patriots” get away with doing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/35 "2003-03-29T20:29:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > \*\*So a patriot is one who thinks their country is the “best”? No wonder “patriots” get away with doing anything. \*\* It didn’t help Flutie, dispshit. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/36 "2003-03-29T20:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Ashcroft . . . well, okay, I can’t think of anything good to say about Ashcroft. Actually, I think he’s the only guy in the administration worse than Bush himself. Beware, this man wants to be president himself Actually, I think the position Ashcroft wants is “Fuehrer.” ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/37 "2003-03-29T21:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thomas Stearns \* > \*\*Frankly I like Bush. The man responded to 911 without wavering, and never let go of the terrorist issue. He’s not getting bogged down in the quagmire of politics and world opinion. He was advised on what he needed to do to make the country a safer place and he’s doing it. He’s not apologizing for it, he jumped in the saddle, looked for a posse, and is now shooting it out. Let’s face it, it’s political suicide and he had the guts to do it because deep down, he thinks it was the right thing to do for this country. \*\* Perhaps it’s the raving liberal in me but I have my doubts that Bush is as noble as you think. It’s been my opinion for some time that the reason Bush is not “bogged down” in world opinion is that he doesn’t much care what anyone else thinks. I don’t know if it’s his ego or stubborness, but I’m leaning toward the former. Secondly, I have reservations about whether his decisions are what’s best for the country. Again, it’s only my opinion, but I feel that Bush puts corporate intersests and pandering to the wealthy above anything else. I’ve felt from the beginning of this whole conflict that it’s nothing more than a distraction technique designed to take the country’s attention away from an economy that’s swirling in the proverbial bowl, and the fact that Osama remains elusive and will most likely continue to be so. It’s also a way to keep the support of the flag-wavers who don’t pay close attention to the actual motivations and reasoning behind conflicts. Operation Re-Election is in full swing. But then again, I don’t know anything. I’m just a tree-hugging, flag-burning liberal; an anti-capitalist who would rather save puppies than let people earn a buck. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/38 "2003-03-29T21:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*It didn’t help Flutie, dispshit. \*\* Can you elaborate? The only Flutie I know is a NFL player. (But you got to admit, being a “patriot” as per your definition has immensely helped and the famous Samuel Johnson quote makes a lot more sense) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/39 "2003-03-29T21:51:10Z")
**Dueling TR quotes, this is fun!** “It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly . . . and spends himself in a worthy cause . . . .” – Theodore Roosevelt, from a speech given in Paris at the Sorbonne in 1910 Conclusion: Say what you want about the President, but support our troops. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936/40 "2003-03-29T22:31:42Z")
**milroyj** , I damn well support the troops. I have a friend out there somewhere. I don’t know where he is. All I know is that his job is of a sort where he won’t be anywhere near any front lines. That doesn’t reassure me very much, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-i-could-be-a-patriot-but-i-hate-bush/164936.md?page=3)