# wish to study etymology and dialects **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 26, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982 "2002-10-26T13:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![merbelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@merbelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merbelle)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/1 "2002-10-26T13:50:58Z")
i have 6 children, homeschooled, and am quite busy, naturally. i keep saying when i have some time i will go to school to learn more about the English language; various dialects a la Henry Higgins, plus etymology and orthography. there are good schools here in New Jersey, though expensive, and i figure i should start filling my penny jar now in hopes of a scholastic future, but i’m tired of waiting. i’d like to know if anyone can recommend books, texts, etc., for home study, and also what courses i would then take in college to study these interests. thanks, mary ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/2 "2002-10-26T14:13:18Z")
I can’t directly answer your question, but you might find this website interesting. [The Great Pop vs. Soda Controversy](http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~almccon/pop_soda/) ---
**Author:** ![merbelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@merbelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merbelle)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/3 "2002-10-26T14:26:36Z")
cool! thanks. my husband and i are from two different parts of the country and have lived in two more, so this is actually something we’ve often mused over, beginning with a visit to his childhood friend’s parents in the Westport section of Louisville, KY. i was asked, “Would the baby like a coke?” the baby was ten months old at the time, and it’s been ten years since, but i still crack up thinking about it. mary ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/4 "2002-10-26T22:54:12Z")
If you haven’t yet seen _The Story of English_, a PBS program with Robert Mcneal, It’s available at[amazon](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D6302892058/102-4681404-5760961) for about 80 bucks (for 9 programs). It might even be available at your public library. Pretty good, imo, and good stuff for the family. You hear the dialects spoken by those who use them. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/5 "2002-10-27T00:58:10Z")
For etymology, the _American Heritage Dictionary_ is a great place to start. The etymologies of the 4th edition have been expanded to include Semitic roots in addition to Indo-European. But in many ways the etymologies of the 1st edition (1969) were more interesting and more fun. Factoid: Two books were inspired by the etymologies of the AHD 1st edition: _Mumbo Jumbo_ by Ishmael Reed, and _Et Cetera, Et Cetera_ by Lewis Thomas. Reed quoted this AHD1 etymology for “mumbo jumbo”— > [@](#): > > Mandingo _ma-ma-gyo-mbo_, “magician who makes the troubled spirits of ancestors go away” : _ma-ma_, grandmother + _gyo_, trouble + _mbo_, to leave. Adventurous etymologies like this were removed from subsequent editions. ☹ According to _Webster’s New World Dictionary_, 2nd College Edition (Cleveland, 1976), the word “shenanigans” derives from Irish _sionnachuigim_, meaning ‘I play the fox’. 😉 Three good sources on English etymology are: Ayto, John. _Dictionary of Word Origins_ (New York: Arcade Pub., 1991). A good work for a popular audience. Barnhart, Robert K., ed. _The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology_ ([Bronx, N.Y.: H.W. Wilson Co., 1988). The best one of all. Patridge, Eric. _Origins: The Encyclopedia of Words_ (New York: Macmillan, 1959). The classic. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/6 "2002-10-27T04:05:04Z")
You should start with _The Mother Tongue_ by Bill Bryson, a popular introduction to the history of English. Then read a standard introductory text on linguistics, like _An Introduction to Language_ by Victoria Fromkin and Robert Rodman. The Ayto, Barnhart and Partridge volumes mentioned by Jomo Mojo are all good reference sources. So is the OED (the Oxford English Dictionary), which is expensive even in the compact version, but it’s the definitive source for etymologies in English. The stuff in the American Heritage Dictionary on Indo-European roots is published in a separate volume, along with an added introductory essay by Calvert Watkins. If you’re really getting into it at this point, get _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ by David Crystal. This doesn’t really consist of encyclopedia-like entries but is simply a fairly introductory introduction to language study. It’s got a bibliography with suggestions for further study on each different field of linguistics. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/7 "2002-10-27T08:22:12Z")
Since you’re looking for advice, I’ll move this thread to IMHO. As for what courses to study in college, I would suggest you get your hands on an undergraduate catalog from your local college and take a look through the listings of linguistics classes. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/8 "2002-10-27T12:25:24Z")
Boy, talk about poor proofreading. I said: \> is simply a fairly introductory introduction to language study I meant: \> is simply a fairly general introduction to language study ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/9 "2002-10-27T21:20:19Z")
I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for, but I recently read “The Power of Babel” by John McWhorter. He’s a very skillful writer, and made me laugh out loud a few times. He’s a good teacher, too. The book is about the history of the English language, basically – his speciality is creoles. There’s some very interesting information in there. Tanaqui ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/10 "2002-10-27T23:17:37Z")
I’ll second John McWhorter… I haven’t read “The Power of Babel” but I have read “Word on the Street” and he really is a very good writer. ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/11 "2002-10-28T19:52:27Z")
For dialectology: American English: Dialects and Variation (Language in Society, 25) by Walt Wolfram (1998) is pretty good. It presupposes some linguistic knowledge but you should probably be able to get through it. The American Language by Menken is a classic but dated. Read it with its timeframe in mind. We used to show a movie called **American Tongues** in all of the intro Linguistics courses. Fairly enertaining if you can get a copy. I have no idea where to go to study orthography. I have never seen it as part of a college curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Coilean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@Coilean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coilean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/12 "2002-10-28T22:01:20Z")
If you’re academically oriented I whole heartly reccomend Peter Ladefoged’s _A course in Phonetics_. Despite the title, it cover’s a lot of phonology and you’ll need at least a lit bit of phonetics to undertstand phonology. Additionally, this is a really good introductory text. Another book you might like to have a browse through is Philip Carr’s _Introduciton to Phonology_ (I _think_ that’s the title. It’s oriented towards phonological theory and, IIRC, it traces a bit of history which helps put everyting in context. Cambridge Universtity put’s out a series of Linguistics textboooks entitled, appropriatly enough, The Cambridge Texbooks in Linguistics. This is a very comprehensive series and a good reference to have handy (n.b. seperate texts for phonology and phonetics). However, these books, often entitled _An Introduction to X_, are fairly complex and not necessarily introductory material. Especially so if you’ve not studied Lingiustics. If you’re interested in Dialects, you’ll find a lot of stuff if you look through the sociolinguistics section of you’re local library/bookstore. Apologies but at the moment specific titles ellude me. Regarding orthograpy, I’m just gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess that what you really want to read is stuff on semiotics. This is (in short) the study of symoblic structures and encompasses more than blackmarks on paper. First stop, Ferdinand de Saussure’s _Course in General Linguistics_. Great stuff! And at some point you’ll need to brush up on morphology (morphology= er, for lack of a better definition I’m just gonna say word structure). From the same series as the Carr book I mentioned above, there’s Katamba’s _An Introduction to Morphology_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/13 "2002-10-29T01:21:12Z")
A wonderful book explaining modern thinking in linguistics to the layperson is _The Language Instinct_ by Steven Pinker. I recommend it to your readership. My very favourite language textbook is O’Grady and Dobrovolsky, _Contemporary Linguistic Analysis_. Despite the rather intimidating title, it’s quite well written. We also had a very entertaining textbook in last year’s Structure of English course - i’ll try to find the title for you. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/14 "2002-10-29T03:04:04Z")
merbelle, What do you mean by orthography? It’s not a term used by modern scholars of language much. It could mean the study of spelling, which doesn’t have any modern scholarly equivalent, or it could mean the study of writing systems for various languages. In that case, I would recommend _The World’s Writing Systems_ by Peter Daniels and William Bright, which unfortunately is horrendously expensive. You know, to be honest, I think you’ve picked some rather wide-ranging and diffuse areas of study. Etymology, dialectology, orthography - these are each major areas, and you can’t really get into them and do them right without doing some introductory studies in linguistics. I don’t think you understand how difficult it would be to study these subjects. What degrees do you have at the moment? If you have a college degree, what you really want to do is find a grad school to study linguistics. If you don’t have a college degree, you want to find a college to study linguistics as an undergrad. You might want to major in English instead if there are no convenient places to study linguistics as an undergraduate, but make sure you do historical English courses and not just literature. ---
**Author:** ![merbelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@merbelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merbelle)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/15 "2002-10-30T13:45:10Z")
Since i’ve been ill and unable to keep up with individual replies, i will offer thanks and so forth all at once, and hope that some dialogue can continue. First, i would not have guessed that this topic fit IMHO best, but if i had i certainly would have posted it there. i like to do things correctly. Next, regarding the term orthography: i am aware that there are many more specific fields of language study, and also that it’s an outdated expression. i apologize for being unclear. originally i used it to mean the field of spelling, but understand it to cover other aspects of the writing process. i am probably more specifically interested in etymology and spoken dialect, however, i believe it’s best to begin from a “macro” point of view, and then narrow my focus as i gain a more complete understanding of the whole picture. I have heard of a few of the books/authors mentioned, and am so appreciative of all your recommendations. of course it’s a huge field with many subsections, and that’s why i asked for advice. i have been reading Straight Dope since before it was on the net, and have always been impressed with the thought-out commentary of the Teemings. And finally, yes, Wendell, i do understand how difficult it would be to study these subjects. i only attended college until the money ran out, which was sooner than anyone would hope, and my focus at that time, silly child that i was, revolved around Political Science. when i am able to return to serious study, i plan to focus on linguistics and English; as you say, history and development are imperatives. i assure you i am up to the challenge. 🙂 but in the meantime, gaining as much background knowledge as possible is my key, and i’m looking forward to finding books mentioned here. thanks ever, ever so much, mary 🙂 “I never approve, or disapprove, of anything now. It is an absurd attitude to take towards life. We are not sent into the world to air our moral prejudices. I never take any notice of what common people say, and I never interfere with what charming people do.” Oscar Wilde ---
**Author:** ![merbelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@merbelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merbelle)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/16 "2002-10-30T14:06:51Z")
Oh, i also wanted to mention that i’ve been slowly collecting old volumes of books such as the Oxford Companion to English Literature–i have a third edition volume that was printed in 1953. it’s neat because it has the name and address of the original purchaser, and a little sticker from "Book Store-Adelphi College: $9.50. i collect old children’s school books as well, such as readers, spellers and histories. but i’m usually hoping to find old dictionaries and scholarly texts, and have had little success. i don’t have money for valuable “rare” editions of books, but if anyone knows of a good used bookshop in Manhattan or near schools in New Jersey such as Princeton or Rutgers, i’d appreciate the recommendation. thanks, mary I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![xejkh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/22d042/32.png) [@xejkh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xejkh)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/17 "2002-10-30T16:08:02Z")
You may find these websites on phonetics useful: [http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/138/notes.htm](http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/138/notes.htm) Peter Ladefoged’s sounds have also been uploaded at: [http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowels/contents.html](http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowels/contents.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/18 "2002-10-31T04:01:39Z")
merbelle writes: \> i don’t have money for valuable “rare” editions of books, but if \> anyone knows of a good used bookshop in Manhattan or near \> schools in New Jersey such as Princeton or Rutgers, i’d \> appreciate the recommendation. I spent a week in Princeton once for a conference, and I used all my free time wandering through the bookstores. Princeton has a number of used bookstores. Just walk up and down Nassau Street and you’ll pass some of them. \> i collect old children’s school books as well, such as readers, \> spellers and histories. but i’m usually hoping to find old \> dictionaries and scholarly texts, and have had little success. Are you actually interested in history of language education perhaps? You seem to have a lot of interests. (There’s nothing wrong with that, but I’m having trouble resolving your interests.) ---
**Author:** ![merbelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@merbelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merbelle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/19 "2002-11-01T14:08:06Z")
two responses-thanks for the phonetics links, xekjh; the first one, especially, will be of immediate use to me. and i do have many, many interests, Wendell. we have only scratched the surface here. but the books i collect are just adjacent to the interests i was asking about here. i mean, i also collect Nero Wolfe books, old volumes of poetry, 19th century English novels, YA novels, books on the occult and more. while it’s true that i’m interested in the history of education, that’s primarily because i want to be a good teacher for my children, and i have the opportunity here at home to get more in depth than in the formal early school setting. wow, awkwardly put, that. but anyway, i am a jack of all subjects, and would like to master at least one or two. how the language developed, generally, and how it varies from region to region, specifically. both written and spoken form, and differences thereof. i have only visited Princeton once, and did not have the leisure to really look around. so i appreciate knowing where to spend some time. i’ll have to drive over there some sunny Saturday afternoon when i have pennies in my pocket. thanks very much, mary ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982/20 "2002-11-03T17:38:30Z")
One thing I think I should warn you about, merbelle, is that you need to put your list of interests into current academic terminology before you go to an advisor at a university to inquire about the courses you should take. Suppose you get accepted at some college and that in orientation you’re told to go see Professor X, who’ll be your advisor, for advice on what courses you should take in your first term. Professor X will presumably teach in the linguistics or (if there’s no linguistics department there) the English department. If you tell him that you want to study orthography, he’ll decide that you’re insane or that you just stepped out of a time machine from the nineteenth century. The worst situation is that you’ll get a professor who doesn’t really care and just lets you take a random assortment of courses that won’t get you into grad school. This is why you need to read some introductory books on linguistics to see if you can place your interests within current academic subject areas. If you get your interests down specifically enough, this may result in Professor X saying, “Hmm, you’re in a specialized area, so perhaps my colleague Professor Y would make a better advisor for you.” This is O.K. What’s not O.K. is throwing out a huge number of vague, imprecisely named subjects that you’re interested in. The reason that I mentioned history of education is that some of what you are interested may be taught in the education departments of universities, rather than linguistics departments. There’s nothing wrong with having lots of interests. I have lots of interests, which is why my apartment is full to overflowing with books. Unfortunately, doing grad work requires cutting down on the number of interests to a small number of them that you can be an expert on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wish-to-study-etymology-and-dialects/133982.md?page=2)