# Wishing death on Sen. Jesse Helms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566 "2003-05-02T04:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/61 "2003-05-05T18:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > **Certainly. What statement would you like me to back up? > If left to themselves, the Sandinistas would not have given up power. > They did so only because they faced the continuation of a bloody war if they did not.** How about this one? How do you know the Sandinistas would not have given up power? To quote you… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\* > What you are saying, Evil Captor, is that you know what you know and you don’t need any proof because – well, you just know. > I’ll respect informed opinions about the man, including condemnation in the harshest terms. But they have to be informed. > \*\* Please show me a non-biased informed opinion of you statement above. or how about the one I originally quoted > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > **But specifically: the problem in El Salvador was not democracy. The problem was there was not enough of it. The Marxists have never created any government, anywhere, that is more representative of the people.** What I was pointing out is that in the space of eleven years the Sandinistas overthrew a dictatorship, held two national elections (won the first and lost the second) and after losing the second election, passed on power to those who won. Thus we have a Marxist government that so representative of the people that when they lost an election, they were willing to step aside and let democracy take its course. SB ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/62 "2003-05-05T19:46:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*There are many people who consider the United States the Great Satan for supporting Israel. > There are many people who see Jesse Helms as Satan for supporting Latin Americans fighting communists. > In the eyes of some people, our support for Israel makes us totally evil and deserving of death. > In the eyes of some people, Helms’ record on Latin America makes him evil and deserving of death. > I don’t believe our support for Israel warrants the hatred, even though some people sincerely and deeply believe it is right. I am questoning the hatred directed at Helms in a similar fashion. > > I’ve noticed a correlation between condemning the “right-wing death squads” and whitewashing the “left-wing death squads.” Most people who can rattle off the atrocities of the right seem genuinely puzzled when informed of massacres perpetuated by the Marxists. You cannot judge Helms’ record accurately unless you know what was actually going on. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/63 "2003-05-05T19:49:40Z")
Crapola. Stupid hamsters. Try this again: [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* **There are many people who consider the United States the Great Satan for supporting Israel.** [/bquote] So, pardon me for asking, what? Morality isn’t a popularity contest; it’s not a vote. If you want to establish moral equivalence between Pinochet’s Chile and modern Israel, you need to do so with facts, rather than statements about what “many people…consider.” Then you’ll need to show how Israel’s policies are the least bit relevant. > [@](#): > > I’ve noticed a correlation between condemning the “right-wing death squads” and whitewashing the “left-wing death squads.” Most people who can rattle off the atrocities of the right seem genuinely puzzled when informed of massacres perpetuated by the Marxists. You cannot judge Helms’ record accurately unless you know what was actually going on. The only question I have left is whether you’re deliberately distracting from the evidence, or whether you don’t realize what you’re doing. If I’m on trial for bombing an abortion clinic, it’s no defense to say, “But animal liberationists bomb buildings all the time!” You’ll get laughed into prison. And that’s basically the defense you’re offering Helms. It’s absurd. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/64 "2003-05-05T20:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*Certainly. What statement would you like me to back up? > If left to themselves, the Sandinistas would not have given up power. They did so only because they faced the continuation of a bloody war if they did not. And since the Sandinistas **were** voted out, on what basis you saying they were representative of what the people wanted? \*\* Oh really? And what evidence, pray tell, have you for this? How do you KNOW they wouldn’t have given up power? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/65 "2003-05-05T20:35:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*Certainly. What statement would you like me to back up? > If left to themselves, the Sandinistas would not have given up power. They did so only because they faced the continuation of a bloody war if they did not. And since the Sandinistas **were** voted out, on what basis you saying they were representative of what the people wanted? \*\* This is contradictory. “If left to themselves, they wouldn’t have given up power.” The only evidence we have here is that, when they were voted out, they gave up power. Eh? They were voted out of power because the United States sponsored a decade-long terrorist campaign in their country, in which health-care facilities and schools were primary targets, as symbols of Sandanista “oppression.” The United States funded the bejeesus out of the Chamorro campaign. It’s possible that without the spectre of indefinite US terror against Nicaraguan government facilities, the Sandanistas would still have lost the election. It’s possible that without the United States’ funding of one candidate in a foreign election, the Chamorro campaign would still have won. And it’s even possible (though you’ve offered no evidence to support it) that, absent US intervention, the Chamorro campaign would have won the election but the Sandanistas wouldn’t have ceded power. Due to the US campaign of terror and election subversion, we’ll never know. Note that I’m not defending the Sandanistas here: I don’t know enough about their government to know whether the government that the Nicaraguans elected to power in 1984 (in an election certified “Free and fair” by virtually every non-US-government observer) violated human rights. That’s beside the point, unless you agree with Reagan and North that terrorism comprises an appropriate response to government oppression. Care to get back to the issue at hand, now – namely, whether Helms has any moral excuse for defending the murderers of Pinochet’s regime? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/66 "2003-05-05T20:39:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Oh really? And what evidence, pray tell, have you for this? > > How do you KNOW they wouldn’t have given up power? \*\* Well, in that it took the Sandinistas 5 years to hold elections the first time, and that Ortega, after winning them, declared martial law and suspended the constitution and civil rights, elections probably weren’t high on their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/67 "2003-05-05T21:09:03Z")
How did this turn into a thread about Sandinistas? 😕 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/68 "2003-05-05T21:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Well, in that it took the Sandinistas 5 years to hold elections the first time, and that Ortega, after winning them, declared martial law and suspended the constitution and civil rights, elections probably weren’t high on their agenda. \*\* I don’t get this. The point is that they did have them!! How can you say that elections weren’t high on their agenda when they held them!! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/69 "2003-05-05T21:22:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*How did this turn into a thread about Sandinistas? 😕 > > Esprix \*\* Because when confronted with (apparently irrefutable) evidence that Helms supported vicious regimes in Nicaragua, **Andy** decided to change the subject. And some of us, regrettably, lack the willpower to resist a hijack, a smokescreen. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/70 "2003-05-05T21:23:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*How did this turn into a thread about Sandinistas? 😕 > > Esprix \*\* Sorry it all started with Satisfying Andy Licious’s (SAL) insistence that people do not give blanket statements about Jesse Helms but instead provide nonbiased examples of why people dislike him. Fine, although I suspect agreeing on what “non-biased” sources are will be a futile task. However, in my opinion SAL is not playing by his own rules and is tossing out blanket statements of his own. I asked him to back up his statement using the Sandinistas as an example and here we are. I think that inability of folks to agree on something as simple (at least to me) as “Because of the efforts of Sandinista regime, Nicaragua experienced its first democratic election since the 1930s” gets at the futility of agreeing on “non-biased” sources insisted upon by SAL. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/71 "2003-05-05T21:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **Because when confronted with (apparently irrefutable) evidence that Helms supported vicious regimes in Nicaragua** Grr. I’m having real trouble posting in this thread. Make that “vicious regimes in Central and South America,” and hope that that’s the last major goof I make in this thread. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/72 "2003-05-05T22:43:06Z")
Obligatory Disclosure - I loathe almost all of Jesse Helms’ political beliefs, and am glad he no longer is a senator from my former state. That said: Those of you wishing a slow, painful, tortured death upon Jesse Helms should know that he did[have some humanity](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/10/19/politics/main242436.shtml) within him, at least at the end of his political career. It also may interest you that he did an amazing thing in his personal life in [1962](http://newsobserver.com/collections/helms/timeline.html) But by all means, carry on, if you must. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/73 "2003-05-06T00:02:04Z")
Sofa King: > [@](#): > > ## Prior to that, Helms said and did these things: quote: > > 1987: In a letter to then-Sen. Lowell P. Weicker, Helms stated: "The only way to stop AIDS is to stop the disgusting and immoral activities that continue to spread the disease. [sic] > > 1988: In a Senate floor debate over appropriations for AIDS services, Helms said of a person with AIDS: “If they had a father who was worth a damn, he would not have gotten AIDS.” (Congressional Record 7/27/88) > > … > > 1995: Helms offered an amendment to the reauthorization of the Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Act that would have cut off funding to any local gay community health center that provided care to men, women and children with HIV and AIDS. > > * * * Thanks, Sofa King. The first and third items sound pretty bad. Not nearly death-wish bad, IMO (though maybe I just have stronger criteria for wishing death on someone), but still bad. The second one, though, is somewhat ambiguous. He made a disparaing remark about some man who was the father of some person who had AIDS. That, in and of itself, tells us little. Was the person a child born with AIDS, whose father was an unrepentant crack-addict who had contracted AIDS through a dirty needle? While still insensitive, Helms’ comment would then be at least defensible (and I would likely agree with the sentiment). Basically, Helms sounds like a bigoted insensitive prick. But if I wished death on every insensitive bigot I knew, the populations of certain areas in Northern California would plummet. **rjung** : > [@](#): > > ## But to put the quote in context: quote: > > On Nov. 22, Helms, slated to be the new chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said Clinton is so unpopular on military bases in North Carolina that “he better watch out if he comes down here. He’d better have a bodyguard.” > > Helms made this astounding threat to Clinton in a Raleigh News & Observer interview. The newspaper was questioning Helms about a statement he made Nov. 18 on CNN’s “Evans and Novak” program. When asked then if he thought President Clinton was “up to the job” of Commander in Chief, Helms stated: “No, I do not. And neither do the people in the armed forces.” > > ## While Helms’ threat created nothing less than a worldwide sensation, it was written off by Republican leaders as “That’s just Jesse.” Helms later said his statement was unwise, and that he “should have said it better.” While that still doesn’t sound like a death threat, it certainly qualifies as at worst hateful, and at best colossally stupid. Thanks for the cite, btw. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/74 "2003-05-06T00:40:28Z")
Yeah, well, Bono kicks ass. Speaking of, U2 has a song called “Mothers of the Disappeared” on _The Joshua Tree_. Mothers of the Disappeared started in Argentina, but this was written for the El Salvador branch. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/75 "2003-05-06T00:45:37Z")
Personally I’d wish death on Jesse Helms just so I wouldn’t have to look at those horrible hangdog jowls and that scrawny chicken neck. Then again, I wish death on a lotta folks. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/76 "2003-05-06T05:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spudbucket \* > \*\*How about this one? How do you know the Sandinistas would not have given up power? \*\* I mistakenly assumed no one would be so endearingly naive as to argue that Marxists truly believed in multi-party systems. But the world teaches you that there is no lie to big for some people to swallow, and Spudbucket looks in need of one giant Bromo-Seltzer right now. Crack books not cocaine and you’ll learn something. Since online resources are valued here, I’ll provide [this link.](http://www.jorian.com/san.html) > [@](#): > > The Sandinista regime was, day by day, losing the revolutionary ideals they had fought for. In 1986, they closed a popular Nicaraguan newspaper, La Prensa, because of “subversive activities” and anti-Sandinista literature. This caused a massive uproar that only exacerbated the already present conflict. What was different between this and Somoza’s censorship and other conservative activities? > Political oppression, freedom violations, oligarchy–these are all things that the Somoza regime represented, and sadly enough, the Sandinistas inherited. The left-wing turned out to be not much of an improvement from the right-wing, as has been the case in history. Despite this, though, there is a rather happy ending to the story of the Nicaraguan people. In 1990, Daniel Ortega, president of Nicaragua, decided to hold free elections within Nicaragua. This controversial decision occurred for several reasons. \*\*First, the collapse of the Soviet Union had left Nicaragua seemingly without allies. International pressure was mounting, and many countries were imposing heavy economic sanctions on Nicaragua. Second, the contra war, going on for more than a decade, was getting unbearable to Nicaraguans, who wanted nothing but peace, and a chance to succeed in global markets. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Thus we have a Marxist government that so representative of the people that when they lost an election, they were willing to step aside and let democracy take its course. > SB \*\* Spudbucket, this way to the Chamber of Apologists. Go on in, sit down, put on your propeller hat and strike up a conversion with all your peers who think Che Guevara looks really cool in a beret. I hear they’re showing Oliver Stone’s latest tribute to Fidel Castro. The room looks a bit like a dust heap – but that’s history. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/77 "2003-05-06T06:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*Crapola. Stupid hamsters. Try this again: > > The only question I have left is whether you’re deliberately distracting from the evidence, or whether you don’t realize what you’re doing. > > If I’m on trial for bombing an abortion clinic, it’s no defense to say, “But animal liberationists bomb buildings all the time!” You’ll get laughed into prison. > > Daniel \*\* I wasn’t aware that animal liberationists were hurling rocket-propelled grenades at the homes of abortion activists or burning down their villages, but there you are. You learn something new every day. Actually, your comparison is silly even by internet standards, so let’s return to planet Earth where the actual conflict took place. U.S. support for these regimes did not take place in a vaccuum. U.S. involvement was predicated on the enemies the regimes were facing. The U.S. has had minimal to no involvement in many struggles all over the globe – the Tamils, the Ibos, the Sikhs, the island of Cyprus, the Armenians, the Hutus and Tutsis, et al. You cannot discuss U.S. support for these regimes without discussing the opponents of these regimes. The U.S. got involved because of the specific nature of the enemy. We are debating why support for these regimes is supposedly “evil.” It makes all the difference whether we: A) Supported a bunch of greedy landowners who just wanted to strangle all forms of human rights, or B) Supported undemocratic military juntas fighting communists. The loony left will always say that what we were doing was choice A. And a hallmark of the loony left is the refusal to admit that the extreme left could commit any sin. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **Huh? Are you making the claim that Israel is comparable to Chile under Pinochet? This is an outrageous analogy…** It **is** an outrageous smear on your part, though I’m confident that people who can both think and read will see through it. I’m not comparing Chile to Israel. I’m comparing the reactions to our support for these nations. Some people condemn us for supporting Chile. Some people condemn us for supporting Israel. The “evil” label depends a lot on your politics. Obviously, I support Israel while being concerned about some parts of its human rights record. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **This is contradictory. “If left to themselves, they wouldn’t have given up power.” The only evidence we have here is that, when they were voted out, they gave up power. Eh?** Crack a history book. Their main support came from the Soviet Union. Do you recall something going on in the Soviet Union at that time? I’ll give you a hint: i-t c-o-l-l-a-p-s-e-d. > [@](#): > > **They were voted out of power because the United States sponsored a decade-long terrorist campaign in their country, in which health-care facilities and schools were primary targets, as symbols of Sandanista "oppression. … Due to the US campaign of terror and election subversion, we’ll never know. [snip]unless you agree with Reagan and North that terrorism comprises an appropriate response to government oppression.** Here’s the part of the loony left that is truly scary. And I’m not talking about the ordinary, folks-next-door, vote-on-municipal-improvements left. I’m talking about **the loony left,** for whom Marxists are always sweathearts bringing freedom and never, ever ever run “terrorist campaigns” and certainly didn’t conduct terrorism as “a response to government oppression.” Sigh. There really are people who think like this, folks. As for us never knowing that the Sandinista would have left without international pressure: Daniel, you just won’t let the facts of the Khmer Rouge, North Korea, communist China, the Iron Curtain and Cuba get in the way of your convictions, will you. You do know about the Sandinista’s horrible conduct toward the Indians, don’t you? > [@](#): > > [In 1981 the FSLN](http://www.halcyon.com/pub/FWDP/Americas/nicar-re.txt) began to systematically retaliate against unarmed Indian communities: half of the villages were burned to the ground, up to 20,000 Miskitos and Sumos were forced into state relocation camps and 35,000 fled to become refugees in Honduras and Costa Rica; remaining civilians were arbitrarily arrested, imprisoned and tortured; village-occupying FSLN army and security units were allowed free rein to rape, and to steal and destroy property; food and medicines were rationed and withheld; and military conscription was imposed. Daniel, why are you defending and supporting people with such blood on their hands? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*I don’t know enough about their government to know whether the government that the Nicaraguans elected to power in 1984 (in an election certified “Free and fair” by virtually every non-US-government observer) violated human rights. \*\* Of course you don’t know, Daniel, because you don’t want to know. **One minute you’re citing all sorts of facts about the Sandinistas Nicaraguan, and the next minute you claim you don’t know about the Sandinista’s human-rights record!** There’s something damn fishy about that. Apparently you have studying everything but their record. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*Grr. I’m having real trouble posting in this thread. Make that “vicious regimes in Central and South America,” and hope that that’s the last major goof I make in this thread. > > Daniel \*\* Either you are unaware that Nicaragua is in Central America, or you’re trying to say that the Sandinistas are irrelevant to discussing U.S. support for their opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/78 "2003-05-06T06:13:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben Hicks \* > \*\*Personally I’d wish death on Jesse Helms just so I wouldn’t have to look at those horrible hangdog jowls and that scrawny chicken neck. > > Then again, I wish death on a lotta folks. \*\* That’s nice, Ben. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/79 "2003-05-06T10:46:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*I mistakenly assumed no one would be so endearingly naive as to argue that Marxists truly believed in multi-party systems. But the world teaches you that there is no lie to big for some people to swallow, and Spudbucket looks in need of one giant Bromo-Seltzer right now. > Crack books not cocaine and you’ll learn something. Since online resources are valued here, I’ll provide [this link.](http://www.jorian.com/san.html) > \*\* Hee Hee…this is beautiful Andy. This is a great tactic that will serve you well. Whenever someone is able to provide you with a clear example that goes against your core belief…discount it by arguing that they are an idiot and naive. I mistakenly assumed that you were being honest when you said that you wanted people to concentrate on the facts. The fact is (no matter how much you deny or discount it) is that the Sandinistas brought free elections to Nicaragua. I again ask you to prove me wrong. Take a few moments and try to realize that the world doesn’t revolve around your opinions and just because you assert something, doesn’t make it true. And insulting people simply shows your ignorance and inability to form a rational argument against their point. btw, next time you include a link it wouldn’t hurt to make it something else besides someones random writings. You are arguing that this link is proof and non-biased? Who the hell wrote it? No information what so ever. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/80 "2003-05-06T12:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*Either you are unaware that Nicaragua is in Central America, or you’re trying to say that the Sandinistas are irrelevant to discussing U.S. support for their opposition. \*\* Let’s just take this one example from your post. There’s a third possibility: maybe I meant to say that the US supported vicious and reppressive regimes ALL OVER CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, not just in Nicaragua. Overally, however, you argue deceitfully: when confronted with evidence, you change the subject, twist my words, claim I’m defending the Sandanistas (when I explicitly said I wasn’t, and mentioned that I wasn’t educated enough about their human rights abuses to defend or support them one way or another). You seem to think that calling the contras “undemocratic military juntas fighting communists” is in any way relevant to the discussion of whether their acts of US-sponsored terrorism were morally justified. You’ve gotten your answer to the OP, and at this point you seem determined to insult and slander people who try to engage you in honest conversation. I don’t need that. Enjoy. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566.md?page=5)