# Wishing death on Sen. Jesse Helms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566 "2003-05-02T04:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/81 "2003-05-06T13:39:42Z")
I should stop but I can’t resist. Andy, you quote this site (which as far as I can tell is someone’s term paper except with no citations) In particular, you chose to highlight… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*[this link.](http://www.jorian.com/san.html) > First, the collapse of the Soviet Union had left Nicaragua seemingly without allies. International pressure was mounting, and many countries were imposing heavy economic sanctions on Nicaragua. \*\* Factual Problems with this quote (1) The Nicaraguan elections took place in 1990. The Soviet Union did not collapsed until 1991. I don’t remember exactly when the preparations for the 1990 Nicaragua elections began but it was during 1988/89. Sure there were problems within the USSR but holding the elections in 1990 had nothing to do with events in the USSR. The Nicaraguan constitution mandated elections every six years. (2) To my knowledge the only country with economic sanctions against Nicaragua was the U.S. Also the BBC (hopefully you will consider this reliable) has a nice summary of the 1984 elections. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/5/newsid\_2538000/2538379.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/5/newsid_2538000/2538379.stm) > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Approximately 400 independent foreign observers, including a number of Americans, were in Nicaragua to monitor proceedings. > > The unofficial British election observer, Lord Chitnis, said proceedings were not perfect but he had no doubt the elections were fair. > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/82 "2003-05-06T14:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I mistakenly assumed no one would be so endearingly naive as to argue that Marxists truly believed in multi-party systems. What about Salvador Allende? A Marxist-AND a democrat at that! **Andy** , what is the jorian site? No one ever said the Sandinistas were choirboys, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/83 "2003-05-06T14:28:40Z")
\*\* Satisfying Andy Licious\*\*, look at [the Truth Commission’s report](http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_toc.html) about El Salvador, if you haven’t already. I posted it in the Oscar Romero thread because i didn’t want to contribute any more to the hijacking of this thread, but i feel like i should repost it here. You have stated that > [@](#): > > **U.S. support for these regimes did not take place in a vaccuum. U.S. involvement was predicated on the enemies the regimes were facing.** and > [@](#): > > **Most people who can rattle off the atrocities of the right seem genuinely puzzled when informed of massacres perpetuated by the Marxists. You cannot judge Helms’ record accurately unless you know what was actually going on.** OK, so let’s look at the record in El Salvador. And you’ll find that the Truth Commission _doesn’t_ ignore atrocities that were committed by the FMLN. It includes [reports](http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_casesE1.html) about the assassinations of mayors and judges, and it condemns these actions. So, the FMLN weren’t always “sweathearts bringing freedom”–but nobody is saying that here. What you and Jesse Helms and the Reagan administration have been saying is that the Salvadorian government was a lesser evil than the leftist guerrillas, and I must take issue with this. The Salvadorian government, through the auspices of its military and paramilitary groups, sponsored far worse examples of terrorism and murder than anything you can accuse the FMLN of. There is no evidence of the FMLN burning down villages, as you have claimed–but there are several cases of entire villages whose inhabitants, including children, were completely wiped out by agents of the Salvadorian state. In its research into these events, the Truth Commission states that > [@](#): > > \*\*Those giving testimony attributed almost 85 per cent of cases to agents of the State, paramilitary groups allied to them, and the death squads. > > Armed forces personnel were accused in almost 60 per cent of complaints, members of the security forces in approximately 25 per cent, members of military escorts and civil defence units in approximately 20 per cent, and members of the death squads in more than 10 per cent of cases. The complaints registered accused FMLN in approximately 5 per cent of cases.\*\* [http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el\_salvador/tc\_es\_03151993\_casesA.html](http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_casesA.html) I’ve discussed specific atrocities in the other thread, and you can read about them in greater detail in the Truth Commission’s report. They paint a very ugly picture of the Salvadorian state. They also paint a very ugly picture of the U.S.'s support for that state. Reagan’s administration and its supporters insist that they were promoting the democratic reforms of Duarte and the moderate PDC party. But they continued to supply the Salvadorian military–many of whose officers we had trained in the School of the Americas in “counter-insurgency” courses–with funds and arms. And when massacres carried out by the military and its allied paramilitary groups (the "death squads) came to light, our government dismissed them as unfounded rumors or flat-out denied that they had happened. Or we insinuated that the victims, who were often unarmed villagers or human rights activists, were FMLN collaborators/supporters. Do i think Helms (or Reagan and Bush Sr., for that matter) deserve death for supporting the funding and arming of the Salvadorian military? This is your question, isn’t it? Well, it’s a stupid question. Many times I have “wished” death upon them, but i would never really believe that. Archbishop Romero, whose good name you somehow saw fit to slander earlier in this thread, never advocated violence against your enemies–he could see that this only provoked and perpetuated an endless cycle of bloodshed. I repeat here that i wish more people could share his perspective–including Sharon’s government and the PLO, and, yes, including our current president and his “damn fool war.” ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/84 "2003-05-06T15:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spudbucket \* > **Hee Hee…this is beautiful Andy. This is a great tactic that will serve you well. Whenever someone is able to provide you with a clear example that goes against your core belief…discount it by arguing that they are an idiot and naive. I mistakenly assumed that you were being honest when you said that you wanted people to concentrate on the facts. The fact is (no matter how much you deny or discount it) is that the Sandinistas brought free elections to Nicaragua. I again ask you to prove me wrong.** Spudbucket, if you had said “the combination of Sandinista government, international sanctions, the collapse of the Soviet Union, U.S. support for the Contras, the weariness of the Nicaraguan people for war, and a battered economy lead to an election in which the Sandinistas lost,” you would be reflecting actual history. Instead you keep insisting that the Sandinista brought free elections to Nicaragua, as if the Sandinista did this entirely on their own, of their own free will. They didn’t. They were cornered and pressured into it. It reminds me of those situations where cops corner a guy in a house and he surrenders. My take is that the cops forced him to give up. Your take is that it was his idea all along to surrender. Stop glorifying the Sandinistas as advocates of democracy. They were Marxists. They started closing oppisition newspapers and turning classrooms in Marxists propaganda outlets. They showed every sign that – given time to consolidate their power – they would become what they were – typical Marxists. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/85 "2003-05-06T16:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **You seem to think that calling the contras “undemocratic military juntas fighting communists” is in any way relevant to the discussion of whether their acts of US-sponsored terrorism were morally justified.** Look up “junta.” I wasn’t referring to the contras. And yes, examining both sides of a conflict is relevant to judging the conflict. You want us to focus solely on the sins of one side. > [@](#): > > \*\*You’ve gotten your answer to the OP, and at this point you seem determined to insult and slander people who try to engage you in honest conversation. I don’t need that. Enjoy. > > Daniel \*\* You comments were not honest. You cited chapter and verse about the Sandinistas, then claimed you didn’t know enough about them to comment on their rights records. That doesn’t pass the smell test. And Daniel, that was hardly an “honest” reading of my comments on Israel. In fact, it was a pretty dirty trick, so lay off the injured-innocent act. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/86 "2003-05-06T16:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skopo \* > \*\* > > So, the FMLN weren’t always “sweathearts bringing freedom”–but nobody is saying that here.\*\* I am seeing a steady effort to minimize the FMLN’s sins and some disingenuous efforts to claim the Sandinistas willingly held free elections. > [@](#): > > **What you and Jesse Helms and the Reagan administration have been saying is that the Salvadorian government was a lesser evil than the leftist guerrillas, and I must take issue with this.** Fine. Let’s also note that on the Romero thread, you touted Marxism as offering a valid way to criticize the world. > [@](#): > > **The Salvadorian government, through the auspices of its military and paramilitary groups, sponsored far worse examples of terrorism and murder than anything you can accuse the FMLN of.** My belief is that this is only because the Sandinistas were not given the chance to do their worst. I think John Wayne Gacy didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy. That doesn’t mean I’m going to praise Gacy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/87 "2003-05-06T16:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*Look up “junta.” I wasn’t referring to the contras. > And yes, examining both sides of a conflict is relevant to judging the conflict. You want us to focus solely on the sins of one side. We’re not judging the conflict. We’re judging Helms. Judging the other side is a separate issue. Thinking otherwise requires us to consider the actions of the US in the Middle East before we decide whether the 9-11 hijackers were acting ethically. > [@](#): > > You comments were not honest. You cited chapter and verse about the Sandinistas, then claimed you didn’t know enough about them to comment on their rights records. That doesn’t pass the smell test. > And Daniel, that was hardly an “honest” reading of my comments on Israel. In fact, it was a pretty dirty trick, so lay off the injured-innocent act. \*\* Bullshit: my comments were perfectly honest. I defended the Sandanista election history, without defending their human rights history. And if you weren’t equating Israel with Pinochet Chile, what were you doing? Pointing out that some people consider Israel evil, while others consider Pinochet’s Chile evil? Allow me to answer with a big fat Duh, and point out that some people consider Mother Theresa to be evil. If you weren’t equating Israel with Pinochet’s Chile, how was your post remotely relevant? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/88 "2003-05-06T17:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*I am seeing a steady effort to minimize the FMLN’s sins and some disingenuous efforts to claim the Sandinistas willingly held free elections. \*\* No you are seeing people recounting history. The Sandinistas held elections under which the democratic process took place. First 1984, then 1990. The Sandinistas were Marxists but held elections. I am not arguing that they are perfect but they held democratic elections and you refuse to acknowledge that. You are insisting that they did not willing hold these elections but provide no proof except to state that since they were Marxists they simply could NOT have wanted to have free elections. Well, this is bullsh\*t. Get over it already. If they had been the cookie-cutter Marxists you want to make then out to be they would not have done it. You have yet to show any valid reasons besides your own strong beliefs about Marxism (not even the Sandinista version of Marxism) to back this up. And this whole thread is about people producing valid reasons for their beliefs (see your own words below) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > **I noted that people wished death on Senator Helms and challenged them to produce valid reasons for their beliefs. This isn’t really about Helms at all. It’s about holding visceral, intense beliefs you can’t really justify – and that applies to homophobia, racism, anti-Semitism and all forms on non-informed hatred.** so it seems you have a visceral belief that no matter what they do the Sandanistas could not believe in elections. Unfortunately for you and your beliefs they actually held elections and in the process created a system that was more representative of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/89 "2003-05-06T19:20:26Z")
And I don’t recall Somoza ever holding elections, **Andy**. So what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/90 "2003-05-06T20:59:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > **I am seeing a steady effort to minimize the FMLN’s sins and some disingenuous efforts to claim the Sandinistas willingly held free elections.** I am seeing that it is impossible to have a debate with you. I’ve addressed and acknowledged the FMLN’s culpability in targeting non-combatant civilians in other posts. The issue, however, is not how terrible these “sins” were, but whether or not Jesse Helms can be forgiven for supporting a regime as repressive of human rights as the Salvadorian government was. > [@](#): > > **Fine. Let’s also note that on the Romero thread, you touted Marxism as offering a valid way to criticize the world.** I’m glad you visited the thread, even though you never posted any responses to it. But I’m disappointed to see you don’t even bother to quote my words. Instead, you accuse me of “touting Marxism,” thereby insinuating that I am Marxist–which, gathering from your past remarks, apparently equates me in your mind with Pol Pot and Stalin. You can excuse me, then, if i feel that i teeny bit slighted here. In my defense, allow me to quote the relevant passage from my post: > [@](#): > > **In other words, Marxism is one of many possible tools for analyzing the problems and sufferings of this world. However, liberation theologists do not necessarily support a Marxist revolution in the Leninist or Maoist sense. I rather think of it in the same terms i do my own discipline of art history. Throughout the twentieth century, many art historians have been influenced by Marxism, and some probably still identify themselves as Marxist. Many more have borrowed, and continue to borrow, from the critical methods that Marx and his followers introduced–particularly in critiqueing the traditional Western models of what constitutes “fine art.” Does the failure of Marxism as a political model invalidate their arguments? I don’t think so, because I believe that Marxism is still useful as a critical tool. I would argue that liberation theology operates the same way–sometimes borrowing bits from Marxism, even in some instances adopting overtly Marxist perspectives–but not necessarily calling for the violent overthrow of the government.** You can borrow elements from different theoretical models without necessary “touting” them as your own worldview. The key here is that Marxism as a critical theory was “one of several possible tools” in analyzing problems. Note that i differentiated Marxism as a political model from its usefulness as a critical tool. Thinkers often borrow from one another without necessarily agreeing with all of their conclusions. Sometimes, they completely misinterpret each other, too. Is your hatred of communism so strong that you can’t differentiate between the various systems that are identified as “leftist” or “Marxist”? Not all Marxists are the same–Maoism is very different from Leninism. Stalinism is something else altogether. Latin American communists also can’t be lumped in with Far Eastern communist regimes–they’re not all the same. I would not say that Pinochet’s regime was the same as Reagan’s or Thatcher’s or Sharon’s. I dislike all of those regimes, and they’re all “rightist”–but i wouldn’t ever say they’re all the same, even when they share certain beliefs. > [@](#): > > \*\*I think John Wayne Gacy didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy. That doesn’t mean I’m going to praise Gacy. \*\* That has to be candidate for the dumbest and most useless/inappropriate analogy ever used in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/91 "2003-05-06T21:03:14Z")
“if i feel a teeny bit slighted here,” I mean. Changed my wording in the middle of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/92 "2003-05-06T21:56:50Z")
Well, since this thread has been thoroughly hijacked on this single issue, and **Andy** wants some Cold Hard Facts, I found a few others that outline Helms’ bigotry and discrimination, at least from a GLBT point of view (from [The Human Rights Campaign](http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/2001/010822helms.asp)): [ul][li]1987: In a letter to then-Sen. Lowell P. Weicker, Helms stated: "The only way to stop AIDS is to stop the disgusting and immoral activities that continue to spread the disease. [/li][li]1988: In a Senate floor debate over appropriations for AIDS services, Helms said of a person with AIDS: “If they had a father who was worth a damn, he would not have gotten AIDS.” (Congressional Record 7/27/88) [/li][li]1990: Helms offered an amendment to the Hate Crimes Statistics Act that stated “the homosexual movement threatens the strength and survival of the American family” and “state sodomy laws should be enforced.” [/li][li]1993: During the confirmation process for Roberta Achtenberg, President Clinton’s nominee to be assistant secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Helms said his reason for opposing her was “because she is a damn lesbian.” (News and Observer 5/6/93.) Two days later, he was quoted in the same paper saying: “She’s not your garden-variety lesbian. She’s a militant activist-mean lesbian, working her whole career to advance the homosexual agenda.” [/li][li]1995: Helms offered an amendment to the reauthorization of the Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Act that would have cut off funding to any local gay community health center that provided care to men, women and children with HIV and AIDS. [/li][li]1998: Helms stated “The New York Times and The Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves.” He charged that the Post “caters to homosexual groups. Just about every person down there is homosexual or lesbian.” In the same article, continuing to refer to homosexuals, Helms is quoted as saying “these people are intellectually dishonest in just everything they say and do. They start by pretending that it is just another form of love. It’s sickening.” (Boston Herald quoting Congressional Quarterly, 7/9/98). [/li][li]2001: Helms offered an amendment to the Better Education for Students and Teachers Act that would have denied all federal money to any local school district or education agency that “discriminates [against] the Boy Scouts of America or [any other] youth group that prohibit[s] the acceptance of homosexuals, or individuals who reject the Boy Scouts’ or the youth group’s oath of allegiance to God and country.” This amendment was similar to a 1992 Helms effort to deny contributions through the Combined Federal Campaign to any organization that boycotted the Boy Scouts.[/ul][/li] I mean, Christ, at least George Wallace recanted towards the end of his life - Jesse has no such intention. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/93 "2003-05-06T23:19:10Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sofa King** ’s post detailing Helms’ changes on HIV funding were very informed. They also indicated that Helms changed his view over time. So if he did change and repent his early view, doesn’t this mitigate the reaction? Well see, here’s the problem with this. Helms _appeared_ to recant his position, but as I tried to imply in that post the expression of regret was wholly empty. His expression of regret was general, I suspect deliberately so. He never once directly mentioned the homosexuals he once targeted. At the exact same time, he still managed to obliqely refer to Christian values, the sanctity of marriage, and (indirectly), abstinence. Having followed Helms and his ilk for years now, _I_ read that as a fairly clear example of Republi-code,\* chirping the same old message. And finally, as I pointed out in that earlier post, despite his promise to make amends _he didn’t actually do anything_. He co-sponsored a second copy of a bill which was already active in Congress, which arguably harmed both bills by making them compete against each other. I’m not saying that was deliberate, but I _am_ saying that it makes his action more substanceless. His call for more HIV funding hit the floor with a thud as soon as the election was over and Libby Dole safely had his seat. If I had to make a guess, I’d say that Helms was just trying to file a few burrs off of his barbed-wire legacy. It didn’t change the substance of his legacy in the least. Now, that having been said, I don’t particularly wish ill upon the man now, because after thirty years of Reconstruction-style politics he’s finally out of a position where he can do direct and immediate damage to the world at large. But he still epitomizes to me the ideal of the small-minded American hate-ist, alive and well a hundred and forty years after we fought each other in part to prevent such ideals from continuing to foster. Helms was small-minded, but he wasn’t stupid, and that’s what scared so many of us to such heights of hyperbole. I therefore look forward to his demise before my own, so that one night I can quietly slide over the spiked fence of the high-security cemetery and deliver a long, warm stream of contempt on his headstone. In my opinion, that’s the very least he deserves for his long years of good work in the service of utter ignorance and regrettably unblinded hatred. - According to what these blokes argue, homosexuals aren’t Christian, can’t possibly be allowed to marry, and are doomed to extinction for their promiscuous ways. Now, that’s just my point of view and I’m not going to put the other foot into that gutter by providing more citations. If Helms’ quote I offered from the Congressional Record doesn’t turn your stomach, then as I suggested before maybe you just don’t see the world that way and don’t interpret those statements in the way I do (and the way in which I strongly suspect his supporters do as well). Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, except that I wish some folks would quit trying to make everyone else wear their prescription. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/94 "2003-05-06T23:46:29Z")
Personally, I don’t wish death on Helms because it’s not worth it. He’s such a sad, nasty, hate filled individual. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/95 "2003-05-07T05:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skopo \* > **I am seeing that it is impossible to have a debate with you. I’ve addressed and acknowledged the FMLN’s culpability in targeting non-combatant civilians in other posts. The issue, however, is not how terrible these “sins” were, but whether or not Jesse Helms can be forgiven for supporting a regime as repressive of human rights as the Salvadorian government was.** In gauging the morality of an action, context and intention are paramount. If you employ deadly force, the goodness or evil of the act depend on the circumstances. If you kill someone for monetary gain, it’s wrong. If you kill someone to preserve your life or the life of another, it is not. In debating the moral nature of supporting these regimes, context is just as important. The far left will always want us to leave out the offenses of the communists. But if you want to judge someone like Helms, you **must** consider the context as much as you would in judging any other action. If Mr. Helms supported bloodthirsty, greedy regimes just because he liked that sort of thing, that’s evil. If he supported them because he was an unreconstructed Cold Warrior, that is a different circumstance. Instead, some on this thread wish to say you must judge his case in a vacuum. This is saying there is no moral difference in any decision to use deadly force. I disagree, and I think most people would too. > [@](#): > > \*\* … Instead, you accuse me of “touting Marxism,” thereby insinuating that I am Marxist–which, gathering from your past remarks, apparently equates me in your mind with Pol Pot and Stalin.\*\* I also equate fascism with Franco and Musollini and Nazism with Hitler. And democracy with the Federalist Papers and the founding fathers, etc. > [@](#): > > **Is your hatred of communism so strong that you can’t differentiate between the various systems that are identified as “leftist” or “Marxist”? Not all Marxists are the same–Maoism is very different from Leninism. Stalinism is something else altogether. Latin American communists also can’t be lumped in with Far Eastern communist regimes–they’re not all the same.** That’s true. They serve very different kinds of food in their prison camps. (BTW, you don’t hate communism?) You can argue about the different styles and cultures of Marxist totalitarianisms – this one uses re-education camps, this one uses torture, this one holds your family hostage. What they have in common is that they deny the worth of private property and individual rights, and they all end up being totalitarian. It’s all well and fine to sit in the salon and debate the fine points of Bakunin, but in the end it’s a philosophy that calls for class warfare. Every Marxist regime has ended up being as corrupt and oppressive at the people or the world would let it be. I don’t even see why that’s a controvesial statement. > [@](#): > > **I would not say that Pinochet’s regime was the same as Reagan’s or Thatcher’s …** Well – crumbs from your table! ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/96 "2003-05-07T06:28:49Z")
**Esprix** and **Sofa King,** now that you’ve shared the Cold Hard Facts, I understand your feelings much better. Critics of Helms often would slap a label on him that didn’t tell me anything, but you’ve showed me precisely what is objectionable. Thank you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **We’re not judging the conflict. We’re judging Helms. Judging the other side is a separate issue.** And that’s precisely what’s wrong with your blinkered approach. You wish to judge the morality of an act _without judging the act._ Context is relevant to morality. Every moral system I know of recognizes that the degree of an offense – or even the existence of an offense – hinges on cirmcumstances and intent. > [@](#): > > **Bullshit: my comments were perfectly honest. I defended the Sandanista election history, without defending their human rights history.** Bullshit back atcha. What in fact you said was this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > I don’t know enough about their government to know whether the government that the Nicaraguans elected to power in 1984 (in an election certified “Free and fair” by virtually every non-US-government observer) violated human rights. So you said, in effect, that I don’t know enough about a government I’m now going to rattle off all these details about. So which is it – you know all about every non-US goverment observer, but you know nothing about the situation? Something is being very selective here – either your memory or your concern about human rights. > [@](#): > > **And if you weren’t equating Israel with Pinochet Chile, what were you doing? Pointing out that some people consider Israel evil, while others consider Pinochet’s Chile evil? Allow me to answer with a big fat Duh …** Well, there’s progress. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spudbucket \* > **The Sandinistas were Marxists but held elections. I am not arguing that they are perfect but they held democratic elections and you refuse to acknowledge that.** I’ve never denied they held elections. But you seem to be denying the role that international pressure played in forcing them to hold the elections. The Sandinistas were going about the usual Marxist course – closing oppositon newspapers, turning schools into propaganda factories, nationalizing businesses, silencing dissenters, dismantling human rights. An objective person can see what type of direction a government like that is going in. The Nicaraguan people themselves certainly could. I don’t know how many bars have to be put on the cage before you’ll admit it’s a cage. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*And I don’t recall Somoza ever holding elections, **Andy**. > > So what’s your point? \*\* That Helms was focused on supporting rulers based on their commitment to anti-communism. ---
**Author:** ![spudbucket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@spudbucket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spudbucket)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/97 "2003-05-07T10:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*You can argue about the different styles and cultures of Marxist totalitarianisms – this one uses re-education camps, this one uses torture, this one holds your family hostage. What they have in common is that they deny the worth of private property and individual rights, and they all end up being totalitarian. > \*\* You really don’t know much about the Sandinista regime do you? Simply calling them Marxist totalitarians doesn’t make them so. Marxists yes. Totalitarians, no. Yes, I would critique them for issues on press freedoms and some issues on personal human liberties while praising them for their efforts in literacy, land reform and health care provision. As you rightly point on > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*In gauging the morality of an action, context and intention are paramount. If you employ deadly force, the goodness or evil of the act depend on the circumstances. > \*\* The context facing the Sandinistas when they came into power was a foreign superpower activily funding and arming a group that originally consisted of the ex-dictator’s national guard. Then a decade-long civil war funded by the US. As the present context in the US shows, when a country is facing war, all maner of civil liberties tend to go out the window. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*I’ve never denied they held elections. But you seem to be denying the role that international pressure played in forcing them to hold the elections. > \*\* OK. The Nicaraguan elections did not take place in isolation. But then again nothing does. As I mentioned earlier, many of the specific incidents you mention, e.g., closure of La Prensa, can be traced back to the US back civil war. Still the Sandinistas did not have to hold elections…Fidel didn’t in Cuba. The crux which I am still amazed that you are unwilling to acknowledge is that the Sandinistas are the reasons why there are free elections in Nicaragua. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > \*\*The Sandinistas were going about the usual Marxist course – closing oppositon newspapers, turning schools into propaganda factories, nationalizing businesses, silencing dissenters, dismantling human rights. An objective person can see what type of direction a government like that is going in. The Nicaraguan people themselves certainly could. I don’t know how many bars have to be put on the cage before you’ll admit it’s a cage. > \*\* Hmmmm…but the Nicaraguan people voted **FOR** the Sandinistas in 1984 in elections seen by non-US international observers as free and fair. And were talking about folks like Sweden and the UK… See the BBC (hopefully you will consider this reliable) . [http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/...000/2538379.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/...000/2538379.stm) Have fun “label-slapping” while demanding “Cold Hard Facts” from everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/98 "2003-05-07T11:50:07Z")
**Andy** , the Somoza dynasty caused just as much, if not more, turmoil and strife as did most communist tolatitarian regimes. To support the right wing death squads, as Helms was, he was merely trading one oppressive regime for another. In the case of Chile, up until the overthrow of the Allende government, the nation had a long history of democracy, of which they were proud of. For the US to turn around and overthrow that democracy, and install a military fascist oppressor was one of the worst evils of the latter part of the 20th century. Allende was a Marxist, yes. However, I do not recall him using sports stadiums for mass executions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/99 "2003-05-07T12:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satisfying Andy Licious \* > **And that’s precisely what’s wrong with your blinkered approach. You wish to judge the morality of an act _without judging the act._ Context is relevant to morality. Every moral system I know of recognizes that the degree of an offense – or even the existence of an offense – hinges on cirmcumstances and intent.** Of course I’m judging the act. The act was supporting terrorists. If all the moral systems you know of recognizes that the existence of an offense (including supporting terrorists) hinges on circumstances, then you must not know very many moral systems. I repeat: Jesse Helms knowingly supported terrorists, by which I mean he knowingly supported people who deliberately targeted innocent civilians (by which I mean doctors, nurses, teachers) in a war. > [@](#): > > So you said, in effect, that I don’t know enough about a government I’m now going to rattle off all these details about. > So which is it – you know all about every non-US goverment observer, but you know nothing about the situation? > Something is being very selective here – either your memory or your concern about human rights. Or your reading ability, maybe. Look closely, and you’ll see I was saying, “The Sandanistas were elected in a free and fair election. I don’t know enough about them to know whether they committed serious human rights abuses.” I could say much the same thing about the government of France. Having read more about the Sandanistas, I can now happily condemn them for their human rights abuses. After abolishing the death-penalty (a great stride forward in human rights), they proceeded to execute prisoners (an even bigger stride backwards in human rights). They shut down newspapers that they believed were infiltrated by agents of an enemy country, a blow to freedom of speech. And these were bad things. Bad, do you hear me? BAAAAD THINNNNNGS. But you know what? When a country does bad things to its people, the correct response isn’t to fund terrorists to kill innocent people in that country. Funding terrorists is NEVER the moral thing to do. I categorically reject any moral system that says I need to consider the circumstances of murdering innocent people before deciding whether it’s an evil act. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566/100 "2003-05-07T14:24:22Z")
I took several books out of the library on Latin America, Nicaragua, and El Salvador. Hopefully, I’ll be able to add more in the coming days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wishing-death-on-sen-jesse-helms/172566.md?page=6)