After having read the second post here, by Scylla, I think, I thought this thread was dead.
I do see the Humanism side of it, presented by UncleBeer, but really what is the harm in it?
Taking action is the line that musn’t be crossed. Right up until that line, it’s all just “mental masturbation.”
It would kind of creep me out to think that a bunch of people were religiously praying for my death though… even you’d admit that would be creepy, huh UncleBeer?
I have a somewhat overdeveloped sense of right and wrong, and yet I see absolutely no harm in wishing someone dead. I remember when I was about eight years old I wished fiercely for a certain girl’s death. In fact, I took fiendish delight in getting her best friend to help me plot out an entirely fictional “perfect murder” while I imagined that it was the evil girl herself who would be the victim. Heh, heh, heh.
More recently, I have on numerous times voiced the wish that a former boss of mine (at the company where I still work) would suffer an untimely death. At one point, because he frequently traveled on airplanes, I wished for his plane to crash, but then I realized that would do unnecessary harm to innocent bystanders, so I just started wishing that he would be struck by lightning while on the golf course, killing him instantly but harming no one else.
I should point out here that I am completely anti-violence and obedient to the law, and would never even think about acting on such a wish. In fact, that’s why most of my death wishes for people involve some external agent acting to cause the death (I never wish that I could shoot someone, for instance.)
This does not negate the fact that in certain instances, death wishes can be wrong.
If the death wish is designed specifically to incite violence, then that’s clearly wrong.
If the death wish is the result of bigotry, that is, wishing death on someone not because of his or her actions, but because of who he or she is, then that’s wrong because it’s bigotry.
If you express a death wish to someone in person, or to someone who cares about or supports the ideals of the person on whom you’re wishing death, then that’s just plain rude, and might even be dangerous.
A final thought. Every New Year’s, I make ten predictions. On of the ten is the “death prediction” (that a specific person will die in the coming year). One particularly gloomy year, I decided that all of my predictions should be for things that I truly wished for. When I came to the death prediction, I struggled. How could I sincerely wish for someone’s death? My prediction: Saddam Hussein.
Unfortunately, I failed to take into account the fact that in over 20 years, not a single one of my death predictions have ever come true. But I certainly didn’t feel bad about predicting Hussein’s demise.
I don’t wish death on folks. Their death will mean nothing to them personally and may simply bring people who may not deserve it at all grief and/or hardship.
I do spare thoughts on hoping that said person reaps what they’ve sown…and that in whatever lifetime they get it, I not only know about it, but they know I know. I’m not above helping justice along on occasion, either.
Many times, people create a worse hell for themselves than we could ever wish upon them. Me, I just hope for justice and try to keep my nose clean.
My neighbor recently pissed me off royally. Royally. I must admit that suddenly the idea of that cocksucker dying became pleasurable to me and I began to entertain thoughts on which method(s) of his demise would be most appropriate. Well, it got to where I’d wake up at three a.m. and think about this crap until four thirty. It was poisoning my mind and elevating my blood pressure.
Then I went to church last Sunday. I don’t go all that often but I like for my daughter to go, so there I was. And what was the sermon on? Forgiveness. How God can’t forgive us for our sins until we forgive all others. How we can’t begin to comprehend the gift he gave us in the loss of his son until we get the hate out of our hearts. So I forgave the guy. What he did (repay kindness with assholedness) still bothers me but I figure it’s his problem now. And I sleep better.
I think the violence you do in wishing someone dead (not that I never did) is to yourself.
{sigh}
Oh, and by the way, Scylla, at least in my case, I do do things to make a difference.
Esprix
That’s still wishing someone dead, even if you can justify it in your own mind. I think we should abolish the death penalty, because how can you make the point that murder is wrong by murdering someone?
Erek
Chock me up on the side that wishing things is no big deal as long as you don’t translate this into action. I am in fact someone with a rather overdeveloped sense of (Jewish) guilt and I used to feel a lot of guilt over things that I wished for. As an example, when I was growing up in D.C., I was always wishing for snowstorms not only because I didn’t mind the day off from school but because I am really into meteorology. (I still get excited by snowstorms, etc.) When the Air Florida jet crashed into the Potomac during one such storm, I remember feeling very guilty about wishing for something that had caused so many people to lose their lives.
Anyway, when I was in therapy in my mid-20s, I once talked to my therapist about this and he asked me, “Do you believe in magical thinking…i.e., that your wishes somehow affect what happens?” When I told him that I didn’t, he asked me why I was then at all concerned about my wishes as long as it didn’t affect my actions. That was really enlightening and I have tried hard to use this line of thinking to fight such misplaced guilt to this day.
By the way, another situation where it comes in handy: I have been friends with many women over the years who I would have liked to be more than “just friends” with. I used to beat myself up a lot over whether I was secretly hoping the relationship will go badly and they will break up with their boyfriends. Now I try simply not to worry about it! As long as I am supportive of them and their relationship (and certainly don’t try to undermine it in any way), who gives a fuck what I might or might not be hoping for!?! [Although, I must say that when I’ve gone rock climbing with these women and their boyfriends and end up belaying their boyfriends, I do try to make a habit of checking the system very consciously— 'cause I trust my superego to behave well but I do worry a little bit about my subconscious id!
SCYLLA,
I sorta-kinda agree with your sentiments, but I have a few points to make:
2: Regarding this statement:
“The kind of person I would like to be: I think the day I wish somebody was dead is the day I go and do the job”
Well, me too, sort of, but you might want to consider something called cost/benefit analysis.
Now, I regret to say I am not politically well-informed enough to have much in the way of personal feelings about the object of the death wishes in the thread that spawned this one (and I won’t mention his name, since this thread is about the general issue of death wishes, rather than discussions of his character), but from what I’ve heard he is pretty reprehensible. So for the sake of argument, let’s say I wish he were dead. Do I do it?
No.
Why?
Because if I did I would lose my own life, or be locked up for most if not all of my life. Or at best live as a fugitive. I don’t want him dead THAT badly.
I could take the position that society as a whole would benefit more from his passing than it would be harmed by mine, but I’m not that altruistic.
UncleBeer,
I don’t really disagree with any of your points either, but have one observation regarding your statement:
“I’m sure I don’t need to post a lengthy discourse on the philosophy of Humanism, but it is, in the most basic terms a system of thought that centers on human beings and their values, capacities, and worth. It emphasizes the dignity of the individual. One central tenet has it that man is a rational being, possessing a capacity for truth and goodness.”
I agree that everyone has the capacity, but that doesn’t mean that all people fulfill that capacity. Despite what we tell our kids, there ARE “bad guys” out there.
Is it wrong to wish someone dead in someone else’s place?
That’s my situation. I wonder why the powers that be took a nice, polite, intelligent, handsome young man who had the world at his feet, and yet left a mean, manipulative, dumb, ugly, rude, selfish cow of a woman alive.
I wish she was dead and he was alive.
Wishing’s not going to change a damn thing, though time will bring half my wish true. Yet I feel like I’m soiling my soul wishing people dead… It’s just not right.
And there are two I wish were dead. The other is a man, much older than the dead man or the living cow so I don’t think of them in the same way.
While I feel guilt at wishing people would die, I guess I could say that the people I hate to death aren’t blameless. Both have earned my eternal hatred by their own actions, and if I wish them dead, it’s only because of what they have done in the first place. She might not have done anything as bad as he did, but she’s such a waste of existence. She may not have broken the law, but she’s committed crimes against people, she’s a homewrecker and constantly hurts people because she’s selfish and self-centered. If she was dead, she’d be mourned by a few, but I think many would be saved some heart-ache. If she’d died three years ago, two children would still have a father, one man would still have his credibility, one teenager wouldn’t have been lead astray, one relationship wouldn’t have been tested by her antics, and I’m sure she’s done so many more things that I know nothing about. Then again, maybe she’s done someone somewhere some good. Who am I to interfer in the running of the world?