# Witches and broomsticks **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 23, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325 "2002-11-23T06:24:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![psyche\_kisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@psyche\_kisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psyche_kisa)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/1 "2002-11-23T06:24:25Z")
I would like to correct you on your column about what the connection is with witches and broomsticks. I myself am a witch, and the only sexual conotation that is related to the subject is that due to the phallic shape they can be used against practitioners of evil magics. They real use for brooms is to cleans an area before rituals, or to cleans an area the negative energy that naturally collects in areas that humans dwell, i.e. the home. They are also use to close a circle in a coven ritual. If you would like to look up my reference materials they are as follows: RavenWolf, Silver, _To Ride A Silver Broomstick_. St. Paul, Minnesota: Llewellyn Publications, 1996. pp. 88-89. Cunningham, Scott, _Wicca: A Guide For The Solitary Practitioner._ St. Paul, Minnesota: Llewellyn Publications, 2001. pp. 26-27. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/2 "2002-11-23T15:05:38Z")
Yes, but Wicca has nothing to do with witches, except in the fevered brain of Margaret Murray and an old article from the 1929 edition that the _Britannica_ has been apologizing for for decades. See [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/991029.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/991029.html) ---
**Author:** ![psyche\_kisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@psyche\_kisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psyche_kisa)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/3 "2002-11-23T15:21:38Z")
Actually the two and one and the same. Although the Witchcraft that is commonly thought of to be practiced by “witches” is a dark magic that involves the devil, this is entirely untrue. Yes there is a belief in the craft that one can do magic, but witches don’t even believe that the devil in its christian context even exists. The witches that the original question refered to are one made up in fear, but the fact that witches did and still do use brooms is true. So the myth of how and what is witchcraft , is based in truth. I was just pointing out the true uses of the broom in witchcraft or Wiccan as it is commonly called today. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/4 "2002-11-24T13:24:15Z")
No. Witches are an old, world-wide fantasy, with no particular connection to Christianity. (In fact, in the “dark ages”, witch-hunts were, rightly, condemned by the Church as a pagan superstition.) Wicca is a religion that Gerald Gardiner and others made up in the 1950’s, based on Margaret Murray’s bozo theories about witches. Wiccans are not witches, because there is no such thing as a witch. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/5 "2002-11-25T02:07:08Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment. Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the Straight Dope web site. To include a link, it can be as simple as including the web page location in your post (make sure there is a space **before** and **after** the text of the URL). Cecil’s column can be found on-line at this link: [What’s the deal with witches and broomsticks? (03-Sep-1999)](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990903.html) * * * moderator, «[**Comments on Cecil’s Columns**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)» ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/6 "2002-11-25T04:21:23Z")
To put it another way: The word “witch” means “a woman (or possibly man) who works magic”. It already had that meaning, before the religion known as Wicca came into being. Then, the Wiccans started calling themselves “witches”. Now, a group is free to call themselves anything they want, but if you use a term which already has a completely different meaning, then you’re rather asking for whatever confusion arises. I could equally well say that I’m a witch, if “witch” is defined as “graduate student in physics”, but I wouldn’t say that, because it would just confuse things, and not help communication at all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/7 "2002-11-25T22:45:34Z")
Chronos is right. “Witch” means someone who deals with demons, etc- ie a sorcerer. Not a “pagan preistess”. True, the word “witch” has it’s roots in “wicca” or “wicce”, but they don’t have the same meaning. Nor does the current version of “wicca” mean precisely what the OE word meant, altho there is an overlap. To give a better example than Chonos- it would be like me calling myself “the Pope” because I have fathered children. Yes, “Pope” has it’s roots in a latin word meaning “father”, and if I fathered children I certainly would be a “father” (or a “dad” “pop”, etc)- but not “the Pope”. Or, since “rabbi” basicly means “teacher”, and since I do teach- calling myself “Rabbi” Thus, the current “neo-pagans”, etc, are no more “witches” that I am “the Pope”- or a Rabbi. But what gets me is when they get all uptight & huffy about dudes getting them confused with the “satanist” type witches. Pick a different name then. I’d expect the exact same confusion if I started calling myself “Rabbi Deth”- dudes would reasonably consider me a Jewish clergyman. ---
**Author:** ![FireWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@FireWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FireWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/8 "2002-11-30T03:11:14Z")
An interesting, if less than informative thread. Here’s yet another take on it. Wicca is Gardners baby, gathered from either the germanic word ‘wic’ meaning ‘to bend’ or the old English word Wicce (female connotation) Wicca (male connotation) meaning ‘wise’. Generally speaking, ol’ Gerry is the grandfather of modern Wicca, not modern Witchcraft, which, not only exists, but is flourishing in these times of spiritual unrest. I find it a great spinning of the wheels to attempt to inject reason into beliefs or faiths, nothing means exactly what it’s supposed to, especially when you’re talking religion. That having been said, I’d like to address the point Mr. Kennedy :wally made about there not being witches. Actually considering myself a witch, I disagree. Am I a hook nosed hag with a pot of boiling potion or a 20 something harpie with two sisters, an attic and book, no. What I am, however, is a person who believes in a duotheistic belief system that allows men and women to be equals from birth to death, and considers the idea of miracles childish and banal. I know that I am more of a Pagan, or Heathen, though quite frankly, I enjoy the idea and connotation of being a Witch. Besides, I’m never at a loss for a Samhain (Halloween) costume. Furthermore, all of Christianity gathers its collective roots from the Heathen traditions. For instance, many theologians consider the birth of Jesus to have taken place sometime in April, or at least sometime in the spring, yet it just so happened that the Yule festival took place in late December, in order to allow easier assimilation into the new Christian religion, the date was set for the mass of Christ, always in the last week of December. This may seem far fetched, but it’s not just my theory. Finally, and this may be a bit too ‘big picture’ for some, the truth is that it doesn’t matter. It’s a word, a title, just like Christian or Bhuddist, or Flying Monkey, it’s really nothing to get worked up about. I know I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/9 "2002-11-30T13:41:03Z")
\<\< Furthermore, all of Christianity gathers its collective roots from the Heathen traditions. \>\> Yes, but. You could equally well say that all of US law draws its “collective roots” from ancient Roman laws. However, that’s very different from equating the two. You could equally well say that the English language draws its “collective roots” from ancient Greek, but I’d hesitate to equate the two. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/10 "2002-12-01T00:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > What I am, however, is a person who believes in a duotheistic belief system that allows men and women to be equals from birth to death, and considers the idea of miracles childish and banal. Then calling yourself a “witch” is doing nothing but deliberately confusing people, because for many thousands of years, dating back long before Christianity, the meaning of “witch” and words translated as “witch” has been “an evil woman (or man) who puts effective curses on his or her neighbors”. You have no right to insist that people stop using it to mean that, and only to mean what you want it to mean. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/11 "2002-12-01T04:25:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FireWitch \* > \*\*Finally, and this may be a bit too ‘big picture’ for some, the truth is that it doesn’t matter. It’s a word, a title, just like Christian or Bhuddist, or Flying Monkey, it’s really nothing to get worked up about. I know I don’t. \*\* Ohhh… big picture… bright…shiny. Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody care? ---
**Author:** ![FireWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@FireWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FireWitch)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/12 "2002-12-02T11:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > \*\*Then calling yourself a “witch” is doing nothing but deliberately confusing people, because for many thousands of years, dating back long before Christianity, the meaning of “witch” and words translated as “witch” has been “an evil woman (or man) who puts effective curses on his or her neighbors”. You have no right to insist that people stop using it to mean that, and only to mean what you want it to mean. \*\* Listen, if you’re confused by the stigma attached to the word, that’s not my fault. I didn’t put the stigma there, and I didn’t refuse to learn something different. And of course, I have no right to insist people do anything other than stop striking me about the head. It’s really all about being exposed to another reality, and not taking what you’re told as absolute truth, though I don’t begrudge anyone that right, it’s just easier to accept things, once you choose to accept them. For instance, and not to equate witchcraft with homosexuality, but even though there are mainstream gay TV shows and press, being gay is still technically illegal in some states, that isn’t the fault of the person who’s gay, but the people, the law makers putting stock in a stigma. \*\* > [@](#): > > You could equally well say that all of US law draws its “collective roots” from ancient Roman laws. However, that’s very different from equating the two. \*\* You could say that, but ancient Rome never had this kind of bureaucracy, and actually, the majority of our base laws come from the Christian faith, the commandments and scripture. \*\* > [@](#): > > You could equally well say that the English language draws its “collective roots” from ancient Greek, but I’d hesitate to equate the two. \*\* Here again, you could say that, but since the basis for our language is largely Latin rather than Greek, and this of course depends on what you’re calling ‘English’ the mish-mash of words, phrases and slang we use here, or the proper manner-ridden English used in the UK, I would hesitate to equate the two as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/13 "2002-12-02T19:03:35Z")
It’s not a question of “stigma attached to the word”, it’s what the word _means_ and has meant for all of civilized history. A very small group of non-conformists deciding, within living memory, to take an old word with a perfectly clear meaning and attach it to a new religion they have just invented from scratch doesn’t mean that other people have to stop using the word to mean what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/14 "2002-12-05T10:17:16Z")
**FireWitch** said: > [@](#): > > …and actually, the majority of our base laws come from the Christian faith, the commandments and scripture. No. The basis of our legal system comes from English common law, which predates christianity moving in to England. A lot of laws certainly have been based on christian attitudes (blue laws, anti-sodomy laws, etc), but not the ones about not killing or stealing or lying in court. The Ten Commandments only have passing similarity with some of our laws, because they are very basic human society issues. The first 4 commandments are religious injunctions which have nothing to do with our legal system. Adultery is not illegal, nor is honoring your parents a legal requirement. And when was the last time you saw someone arrested for coveting? Christian ideas did have an influence on creating some laws, because Christianity had such a strong influence on Western culture, but the basis for the legal system was not in any way christianity or the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/15 "2002-12-05T19:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The basis of our legal system comes from English common law, which predates christianity moving in to England. Rather an overstatement on two points: First, the antiquity and uniqueness of Common Law have tended to be overstated by jingos. Common Law does diverge in many points from Roman Law, but both systems descend in the main from the laws of the late Empire. Second, Christianity was in Britain before the English arrived, and it took only a century or so to convert them. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-and-broomsticks/138325/16 "2002-12-06T16:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > \*\*It’s not a question of “stigma attached to the word”, it’s what the word _means_ and has meant for all of civilized history. A very small group of non-conformists deciding, within living memory, to take an old word with a perfectly clear meaning and attach it to a new religion they have just invented from scratch doesn’t mean that other people have to stop using the word to mean what it means. \*\* **John,** I have come to respect your opinions and erudition. However, I think you and **Fire Witch** are protesting a bit to much on this scholarly tug-of-war. The word has been kidnapped several times, and it probably will be again. I agree that the kidnapping has not yet reached permanent status. It still means several things. We’ve seen that status in words like _gay_ and _terrific._ A guy having a wonderful day can no longer say he’s gay without being misunderstood. If I tell a woman she looks terrific (scary,) she will surely take it as a compliment. _Witch_ may someday mean a wiccan and nothing else; or maybe it will mean a trenching machine and nothing else. Time will tell.