# Witches, Macbeth, and literacy **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 4, 2006, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074 "2006-11-04T08:21:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/21 "2006-11-05T21:58:48Z")
When you think about it, the witches could be written out of the story entirely without changing it in any important way. They’re really just a kind of expository chorus. You can’t blame them for Macbeth’s deeds – as George Orwell, I think, pointed out in one of his essays, it’s obvious the thought of murdering and usurping Duncan has already occurred to Macbeth before the witches prophesy his kingship. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/22 "2006-11-06T07:13:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] When you think about it, the witches could be written out of the story entirely without changing it in any important way. They’re really just a kind of expository chorus. You can’t blame them for Macbeth’s deeds – as George Orwell, I think, pointed out in one of his essays, it’s obvious the thought of murdering and usurping Duncan has already occurred to Macbeth before the witches prophesy his kingship. [/QUOTE] Oh really? To MacBeth–or to his wife? I still claim she goaded him into it… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/23 "2006-11-06T07:28:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] When you think about it, the witches could be written out of the story entirely without changing it in any important way. [/quote] The plot wouldn’t change. The tone and characterization would change a great deal. > [@](#): > > Macbeth’s deeds – as George Orwell, I think, pointed out in one of his essays, it’s obvious the thought of murdering and usurping Duncan has already occurred to Macbeth before the witches prophesy his kingship. Seriously? Macbeth is a low man on the totem pole before the play starts. He becomes first in the line of succession only after he’s made Thane of Cawdor, and that comes after he meets the witches - they promise him that title, then the crown. He thinks both ideas are absurd. You wouldn’t happen to remember Orwell’s reasoning, would you? Offhand, I can’t think of anything in the text that supports that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/24 "2006-11-06T08:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The plot wouldn’t change. The tone and characterization would change a great deal. [/QUOTE] Like the movie _Troy_ (Homer & Co.'s tales without the gods or supernatural). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/25 "2006-11-06T10:27:38Z")
IIRC, James was also descended from Banquo, so Shakespeare changed Banquo from one of Macbeth’s supporters to one of his victims. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/26 "2006-11-06T13:23:28Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Abso-fricking-lutely. The best version I’ve seen is a “based on” movie called [Scotland, PA](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265713/) , which was very good, but I think I and about 20 people in New York were the only ones who saw it. [/QUOTE] Thre’s also a [version of Macbeth done by the BBC](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453514/), which has not yet been released either in the US or Australia. It’s one of a set of 4 Shakespeare plays updated and modernised – and woth seeing if you can get your hands on a set. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/27 "2006-11-06T14:46:20Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] IIRC, James was also descended from Banquo, so Shakespeare changed Banquo from one of Macbeth’s supporters to one of his victims. [/QUOTE] That was also the purpose of the vision Macbeth sees in the witches’ cauldron of the line of kings dscended from Banquo: “What - will the line stretch out to the crack of doom?” It’s a nice compliment to King James, implying that his line will continue. (Which it has, via a little detour through the Hanoverians 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/28 "2006-11-06T15:14:52Z")
Thanks for the other movie/TV suggestions! I will start adding what I can to the Netflix queue. But I still notice that all the good ones are retellings, moved about in time and culture. Is there any good straight “Shakespearean” version out there? I don’t know of one. (WhyKid is actually studying MacBeth in drama this year, in eighth grade! :eek: I thought it was a little young, but they’re really revelling in the blood. Little demons. Last week he had to do a costume design for Banquo, who ended up looking a lot like a video game. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/29 "2006-11-06T16:15:07Z")
Michael Wood did a TV series called “In Search of Shakespeare”–seen here on PBS. His shows do tend to include a few too many shots of Wood looking dramatically at dramatic scenery–but this one was pretty well done. Shakespeare’s religious background was discussed, along with known bits of his life & historical background. (The Royal Shakespeare Company performed scenes from the plays, as well.) From the Publisher’s Weekly summary of the book that accompanied the series: > [@](#): > > Addressing both Shakespeare’s artistic universality and his religious beliefs, Wood considers him a Catholic with a capital “c” as well as a small one. Wood doesn’t have new evidence to support this necessarily, but he does delve into the Warwickshire region’s history as a flashpoint of crypto-Catholicism, which may have touched Shakespeare’s family and their neighbors and distant relatives. I found this more an interesting possibilty than a Blinding Revelation That Will Change Shakespeare Scholarship Forever. Wood didn’t dwell on it excessively. As already discussed, Shakespeare’s depictions of Catholic clergy were hardly Protestant propaganda. Since I was “off” this weekend, I hadn’t read the thread about Witches. Shakespeare surely would have known English folklore, but there’s damn little evidence of an Old Religion handed down from the Druids (who built Stonehenge–as all too many believe) to today’s Wiccans. Shakespeare was definitely “catholic.” And always worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074/30 "2006-11-06T16:22:38Z")
Just to note that I added the above post to the wrong thread! It should be in this one…maybe I’ll copy it there? > **[Master Shakespeare a foul Papist? Possible!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394913)** > > In another thread in cafe society, here someone brings up an interesting idea that Shakespeare may have been of the Old Religion (i.e. Roman Catholic). While we may never settle the question, here is some interesting evidence. The number of Roman... Or perhaps a Mod will help… [QUOTE=Bridget Burke] Michael Wood did a TV series called “In Search of Shakespeare”–seen here on PBS… [QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/witches-macbeth-and-literacy/379074.md?page=1)