# With allies like these, who needs enemies. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207 "2005-10-21T03:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/21 "2005-10-21T22:57:08Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > My goodness! They certainly deserve to be thrown to the dogs then, > > _We must respect the other fellow’s religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart._ > > H. L. Mencken Except, y’know, when our only allies in the country in question are also Muslims who are seriously offended by what we did. Or are you one of those who are of the opinion that the Muslims are the bad guys only? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/22 "2005-10-21T23:27:37Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yo **Finn**. Thanks for the Pinker stuff. Very enlightening. I wanted to email you a proper thanks but you ain’t receiving. No prob, glad you liked. I am a bit confused though, my email is [AgentFinn@gmail.com](mailto:AgentFinn@gmail.com) and, I think, I’ve made it able to be gotten by people looking at my profile. I’ll try to see what I can determine. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/23 "2005-10-21T23:34:11Z")
Taliban scum. Who gives a shit. Fuck them. No better than Nazi pigheads or Stalin’s henchmen. Burn the fuckers. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They were disrespectful of ISLAM, retard. There’s a difference. You should be grateful to the journalist for doing his job. What? Are you being ironic? For all the times I’ve seen you been disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY, being disrepsctful to religions don’t seem to be one of your major hung-ups. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/24 "2005-10-21T23:43:47Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What? Are you being ironic? For all the times I’ve seen you been disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY, being disrepsctful to religions don’t seem to be one of your major hung-ups. Do you maybe see a difference between speaking against the dominant religious power in most western civilizations and deliberately offending the religious sensibilities of people you’re trying to win over in a war? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/25 "2005-10-21T23:50:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Do you maybe see a difference between speaking against the dominant religious power in most western civilizations and deliberately offending the religious sensibilities of people you’re trying to win over in a war? Oh yeah. I can see it might not be the best strategic choice. But stupidity doesn’t really get me fired up with moral outrage. The Russians burned Hitler too. So fucking what. The Taliban is just a bunch of fascist bastards. No worse than torching Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/26 "2005-10-22T00:03:50Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The Russians burned Hitler too. So fucking what. The Taliban is just a bunch of fascist bastards. No worse than torching Hitler. The Russians burned Hitler? Before or after the Germans bombed us at Pearl Harbor? ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/27 "2005-10-22T00:23:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Taliban scum. Who gives a shit. Fuck them. No better than Nazi pigheads or Stalin’s henchmen. Burn the fuckers. > > What? Are you being ironic? For all the times I’ve seen you been disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY, being disrepsctful to religions don’t seem to be one of your major hung-ups. Please, **Dio** is hardly disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY. Maybe you should be respectful and spell it right. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/28 "2005-10-22T02:50:51Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What? Are you being ironic? For all the times I’ve seen you been disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY, being disrepsctful to religions don’t seem to be one of your major hung-ups. Oh, shit, you’re right, **Rune**! All those times when **Diogenes** has been incredibly disrespectful and…uh, burnt Christian corpses in a sacriligious way. On a message board. Riiiiiight. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/29 "2005-10-22T03:15:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > 1. The American special forces soldiers who committed the atrocity. > > 2. The American Army psychological operations unit that came up with such a plan. > > 3. The American officers higher up the chain who failed to instill the necessity of civilized behavior in these soldiers, and who failed to put in place a command system to prevent such atrocities. > > I am ashamed that we are allied with such scum. And now, having seen what some people have posted here, let me add that I pit a certain portion (hopefully only a small portion) of the American public who support such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/30 "2005-10-22T03:22:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Taliban scum. Who gives a shit. Fuck them. No better than Nazi pigheads or Stalin’s henchmen. Burn the fuckers. If we were going after Jewish terrorists would we be justified in doing thinks to offend all Jews? > [@](#): > > What? Are you being ironic? For all the times I’ve seen you been disrespectful to CHRISTIANIATY, being disrepsctful to religions don’t seem to be one of your major hung-ups. When have I ever been disrespectful to Christianity? Cite? Just because I don’t believe in it doesn’t mean I’m disrespecting it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/31 "2005-10-22T03:24:43Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > My goodness! They certainly deserve to be thrown to the dogs then, > > _We must respect the other fellow’s religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart._ We are not at war with Islam. Some of the American soldiers who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are Muslims. Do they deserve respect or don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/32 "2005-10-22T04:02:52Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > 1. The American officers higher up the chain who failed to instill the necessity of civilized behavior in these soldiers, and who failed to put in place a command system to prevent such atrocities. Is it truly possible to be civil in the act war? The nature of war seems to be counterindicated by rules of civil society. How do you teach soliders to kill if they can’t see their enemies as being below them? I don’t think too many people want to kill their equals. I don’t know, but it seems to me that if you want people to kill for your cause, you may have to expect this sort of thing every once in a while. Killing doesn’t mesh well with civility. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/33 "2005-10-22T06:39:58Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > The Russians burned Hitler? Before or after the Germans bombed us at Pearl Harbor? "Soviet troops dug up the remains after they entered Berlin in 1945, and reburied them in Magdeburg, East Germany, according to Russian reports. **In 1970, then-KGB chief Yuri Andropov ordered the bones dug up to “permanently destroy them through incineration,” according to some reports.** Other reports suggest that some skull fragments were found separately in Hitler’s bunker by the KGB and may have been brought to Moscow. " [Cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/725537.stm) ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/34 "2005-10-22T06:47:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Actions which are deliberately intended to be patently offensive to Muslims (not just the Taliban…this action was insulting to Islam as a whole, including millions of Muslims who are American citizens) are hardly helping the cause in Afghanistan. > . ISTM that it was trying to be offensive to the muslims who were shooting at them. YMMV, but then again, it usually does. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/35 "2005-10-22T07:14:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If we were going after Jewish terrorists would we be justified in doing thinks to offend all Jews? The short answer to that is yes. If you really believe that religious sensibilities should take precedence over all other considerations at a time of war then you’ve been living too long in that tub. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/36 "2005-10-22T07:31:25Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The short answer to that is yes. If you really believe that religious sensibilities should take precedence over all other considerations at a time of war then you’ve been living too long in that tub. And if you believe that, in a War to Win Hearts and Minds [sup]tm[/sup], things should take precedence over the consideration of not screwing up royaly and making those ‘hearts and minds’ focused on your death, then you’ve been living too long outside of the fact based community. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/37 "2005-10-22T09:35:48Z")
But that’s the point. Things got screwed up because of a journalist who didn’t weigh the greater good (the possible saving of Allied lives) against the lesser evil (disrespecting one of the tenets of Islam). Let’s face it, the US is never gonna win any popularity contests in the Muslim world, however light the tread and however much bending over backwards is attempted to avoid offence. Hearts and Minds was a lost cause from the get-go. This was not Abu Ghraib. I recall that Macaulay once wrote, “Nothing is more ridiculous than the British public in one of its periodic fits of morality.” But then again he hadn’t run into Diogenes and his buddies. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/38 "2005-10-22T11:29:22Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Is it truly possible to be civil in the act war? The nature of war seems to be counterindicated by rules of civil society. > > How do you teach soliders to kill if they can’t see their enemies as being below them? I don’t think too many people want to kill their equals. I don’t know, but it seems to me that if you want people to kill for your cause, you may have to expect this sort of thing every once in a while. > > Killing doesn’t mesh well with civility. > [@](#): > > You will see things that no man could pay to see > – and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. > You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. > > Don’t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. > Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. > > If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. > Allow them dignity in death. > Bury them properly and mark their graves. > > […] > > It is a big step to take another human life. > It is not to be done lightly. > I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. > I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. > > If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. > The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. > > If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. > You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest – for your deeds will follow you down through history. > We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation. > > **Extract from the speech by Colonel Tim Collins to the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, prior to the commencement of the second Iraq War.** [http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/2003/03/collins/](http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/2003/03/collins/) …war is waged how you decide to wage it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/39 "2005-10-22T12:13:02Z")
Nice speech. Here’s something a little pithier. “You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it;” William Tecumseh Sherman. Or, pithier still. “War is hell.” Sherman again. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/40 "2005-10-22T12:44:13Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Let’s face it, the US is never gonna win any popularity contests in the Muslim world, however light the tread and however much bending over backwards is attempted to avoid offence. Hearts and Minds was a lost cause from the get-go. Now that the “Hearts and Minds” battle is lost the only way left to win is to nuke the whole lot of them. Yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207.md?page=3)