# With allies like these, who needs enemies. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207 "2005-10-21T03:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/101 "2005-10-23T04:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > …Desecration is in the eyes of the beholder… Good start! An obvious truth, giving promise that, having laid the irrefutable foundation, you will advance to some intelligent and perceptive point. Yes, indeed, no doubt about it…one man’s meat is another man’s kindling. > [@](#): > > …Many corpses are burned in America by loved ones… In which we are disappointed. Such ceremonies as cremation are generally conducted in solemn ritual in America, dignified, mournful. Beery Uncle Fred doesn’t climb atop Aunt Maude’s casket and take a hearty whizz on her face. Precisely what do you mean to illuminate with this comparison? That Muslim burial customs are very different from our own? Thank you. Yes. We knew that. > [@](#): > > …This moral outrage on the part of westerners on behalf of a concept of desecration provided by a religion that holds believers of whatever ilk to deserve superior treatment and standing over unbelievers just baffles me… This sentence reminds me of Mark Twain’s remark about literary Germans, who dive into the Atlantic Ocean of a sentence and emerge on the far shore with their verb in their mouth. What we do know is that you are baffled, but not passively flumoxxed, no, indeed, you offer your bafflement as evidence that somebody else must be wrong. I don’t understand, therefore, you are wrong. > [@](#): > > …Well cremating those Muslims was a mistake for the reason you state… No. 2+2=5 is a mistake. When people are likely to die as a result of an action, “oopsy!” just doesn’t cut it. > [@](#): > > …Yah, who the fuck cares about the truth. Someone erroneously asserts that America is in contravention of the Geneva Convention, so we must just accept it… Arguing as to whether or not this violates the GC is like arguing whether the OK City bombing violated zoning regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/102 "2005-10-23T05:27:39Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > The second problem I have with citing the Geneva convention is that these bodies were not prisoners of war. They did not die in captivity. The rules of the convention regarding respect for the dead specifically apply to those who died in captivity. **Flying Dutchman** , you’re a moron. You purport to be analysing the “Geneva Convention”, but are unaware that there are in fact a few different treaties called the Geneva Convention **s** , along with other materials such as optional protocols to the Convention as well as a great deal of related law arising from different treaties, international custom and international jurisprudence. The treaty you quote is Geneva Convention Three, the _Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War_, and of course only deals with prisoners of war. The relevant one here is Geneva Convention One, the _Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field_, article 17 of which states, in part: > [@](#): > > Bodies shall not be cremated except for imperative reasons of hygiene or for motives based on the religion of the deceased…They [the High Contracting Parties] shall further ensure that the dead are honourably interred, if possible according to the rites of the religion to which they belonged… In relation to your Article 2 argument, the Taliban were the government of Afghanistan until the US / Northern Alliance / Coalition attack in late 2001. Afghanistan was in fact a state party to the Conventions, and therefore Taliban armed forces would be bound by it in the ensuing conflict. Therefore, the US could arguably be bound to follow the Conventions in their actions in the conflict. Even if it were held that the Taliban soldiers killed were not acting for a High Contracting Party to the GCs and thus the GCs did not apply, the Conventions aren’t all there is to international humanitarian law. The US’s actions would almost certainly be a violation of international customary law, for which the Geneva Conventions are an excellent source of expected norms. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/103 "2005-10-23T05:51:24Z")
I’m not twisting anything. The conventions require those who have signed it to obey it, regardless if the other party to a conflict has signed it. ---
**Author:** ![Pan4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@Pan4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pan4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/104 "2005-10-23T05:52:52Z")
I just wanna love everyone and smoosh you all up like a bunch of Care Bear-Sprittles…mmmmmmMMMMmmm…btw, it’s all been done before, get used to it…our ancestors did wherever you hail from ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/105 "2005-10-23T15:26:03Z")
> [@Pan4Life](#): > > I just wanna love everyone and smoosh you all up like a bunch of Care Bear-Sprittles…mmmmmmMMMMmmm…btw, it’s all been done before, get used to it…our ancestors did wherever you hail from A truly infantile argument. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/106 "2005-10-23T15:43:58Z")
Not strictly true, either. Though savagery in war is the standard, there are exceptions. In the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese astounded the world with their care and compassion for wounded and captured Russian soldiers. Moscow newspaper reprinted letters home from wounded Russians testifying to such. Japanese soldiers would “adopt” a wounded Russian and take personal responsibility for nursing that soldier back to health. The effect on Japan’s international prestige and diplomatic standing were enormous. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/107 "2005-10-23T15:55:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The effect on Japan’s international prestige and diplomatic standing were enormous. How odd, then, that they changed so much in a mere 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/108 "2005-10-23T16:14:34Z")
Odd, tragic, and inexplicable. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/109 "2005-10-23T16:17:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Odd, tragic, and inexplicable. It’s quite easily explicable based on the political changes in Japan between 1904 and 1941. There’s not a lot of mystery there. But it sure was tragic. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/110 "2005-10-23T16:36:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s quite easily explicable based on the political changes in Japan between 1904 and 1941. There’s not a lot of mystery there. But it sure was tragic. It took them a little less than 40 years to change, witness the [Fall of Nanking](http://www.geocities.com/nankingatrocities/Fall/fall_02.htm) in 1937. The New York Times: December 18, 1937 _Butchery Marked Capture of Nanking_ **All CAPTIVES SLAIN** _Civilians Also Killed as the Japanese Spread Terror in Nanking_ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/111 "2005-10-23T18:17:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The effect on Japan’s international prestige and diplomatic standing were enormous. I can’t resist. You must let the Japanese historians in on this. From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War) > [@](#): > > In the war, the Japanese army treated civilians and prisoners of war well, without the brutality and atrocities that were widespread during World War II. Japanese historians think this war was a turning point of Japan and a key to understanding why Japan failed militarily and politically later. The acrimony that occurred in Japan’s society went to every class and level, and shortly became the consensus within Japan that they had been treated as the defeated power during the peace conference. This feeling built up by degrees with every perceived slight and condescending act by the Western powers toward Japan for the next few decades. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/112 "2005-10-23T18:33:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese astounded the world with their care and compassion for wounded and captured Russian soldiers. Moscow newspaper reprinted letters home from wounded Russians testifying to such. Japanese soldiers would “adopt” a wounded Russian and take personal responsibility for nursing that soldier back to health. I don’t think that there were any independant photographers and newsmen embedded with the Japanese and Russian forces at that time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/113 "2005-10-23T20:33:47Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I don’t think that there were any independant photographers and newsmen embedded with the Japanese and Russian forces at that time. And if there had been, it would’ve been their fault. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/114 "2005-10-23T21:37:25Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Wow! Those billionaires sure are evil people! > > Can I let you know when I get tired of simplistic shit such as your argument? Oh, you probably still believe that this country is run “democratically” don’t you? How many Halliburton no-bid contracts have to go into effect before I am allowed to talk about lining the pockets of billionaires? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/115 "2005-10-23T22:18:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How many Halliburton no-bid contracts have to go into effect before I am allowed to talk about lining the pockets of billionaires? You’re just jealous because you don’t have one of those [$20 ice cube trays](http://www.sltrib.com/nationworld/ci_3143924). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/116 "2005-10-23T22:24:31Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > And if there had been, it would’ve been their fault. Ziiiing! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207/117 "2005-10-23T22:59:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How many Halliburton no-bid contracts have to go into effect before I am allowed to talk about lining the pockets of billionaires? > > Erek Oh, I dunno. 7? 8? 11? 29? I give up. How many is it? And do you get an official licence when they eventually do allow you to talk? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/with-allies-like-these-who-needs-enemies/327207.md?page=5)